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Calvinism Alone Gives fullest glory and honor to the Grace of God

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Election is God actually choosing to save a hell bound sinner. It is election to salvation

God has chosen His plan of redemption for all who will be saved.

"For God so loved the world that He gave..."

That's the predestination, His plan of how man will be conformed to the image of Christ.

Not a predestination of who will be saved.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
God has chosen His plan of redemption for all who will be saved.

"For God so loved the world that He gave..."

That's the predestination, His plan of how man will be conformed to the image of Christ.

Not a predestination of who will be saved.
God does not save a plan. He has ordained to save all those elected unto salvation. They and thy alone are the objects of His seeking and saving.
They alone are the Everyone believing of Jn 3:16..... no more, no less.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
God does not save a plan. He has ordained to save all those elected unto salvation. They and thy alone are the objects of His seeking and saving.
They alone are the Everyone believing of Jn 3:16..... no more, no less.

God, before the foundation of the world decided that man would be saved by Grace through faith in the finished work of His Son.

That was His plan, and the predestination of all men who will believe.

You see, Z, God did not predestinate who would be saved, but how we would be saved.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
God, before the foundation of the world decided that man would be saved by Grace through faith in the finished work of His Son.

That was His plan, and the predestination of all men who will believe.

You see, Z, God did not predestinate who would be saved, but how we would be saved.

If you read all those predestination verses in this light, you will see what I'm talking about.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
God, before the foundation of the world decided that man would be saved by Grace through faith in the finished work of His Son.

That was His plan, and the predestination of all men who will believe.

You see, Z, God did not predestinate who would be saved, but how we would be saved.
Thanks for your response Charlie,
Many evangelical Baptists have this simple, but biblically anemic understanding of what God has revealed As His intentions toward fallen mankind.
In many churches, those who say they "believe the Gospel" are saying that they believe they are sinners, and believe Jesus died to save sinners. Often times many remain as spiritual babes, or young children in the faith, failing to study and grow as they should. There are many reasons for this.

Many I have seen, have little to no understanding of our triune God as A Covenant making, and Covenant keeping God. They fail to understand the very nature of God's design of what exactly be accomplished at the cross. When called upon to expound a bit, they fumble and stumble as they have not been instructed in these things. Your post above is biblically deficient, and you do not see how it is actually unbiblical, that is, opposed to revealed truth. You think you have it correct, and are trying to help. but what you offer is way off. I do thank you for your attempt at offering help even though what you offer is defective. That is as nice as I could put it.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your response Charlie,
Many evangelical Baptists have this simple, but biblically anemic understanding of what God has revealed As His intentions toward fallen mankind.
In many churches, those who say they "believe the Gospel" are saying that they believe they are sinners, and believe Jesus died to save sinners. Often times many remain as spiritual babes, or young children in the faith, failing to study and grow as they should. There are many reasons for this.

Many I have seen, have little to no understanding of our triune God as A Covenant making, and Covenant keeping God. They fail to understand the very nature of God's design of what exactly be accomplished at the cross. When called upon to expound a bit, they fumble and stumble as they have not been instructed in these things. Your post above is biblically deficient, and you do not see how it is actually unbiblical, that is, opposed to revealed truth. You think you have it correct, and are trying to help. but what you offer is way off. I do thank you for your attempt at offering help even though what you offer is defective. That is as nice as I could put it.

Well, that was nice and I appreciate that. You believe what you believe, and I have shown you what I believe.

As @JonC has so graciously reminded me, those posts are for those who don't know what to believe, let them consider what I've said.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
Well, that was nice and I appreciate that. You believe what you believe, and I have shown you what I believe.

As @JonC has so graciously reminded me, those posts are for those who don't know what to believe, let them consider what I've said.
Yes Charlie,
Each person on here can only offer what they believe. I cannot expect you or John, or Silverhair, or Van to offer anything close to the truths that some of us take for granted. We post for those who read and are searching for truth. I think it is good for people to read and consider what is offered. I like to offer truth more, but it is hard to read the caricatures and straw men offered, that need to be exposed.
Go with what you understand until God gives change.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Yes Charlie,
Each person on here can only offer what they believe. I cannot expect you or John, or Silverhair, or Van to offer anything close to the truths that some of us take for granted. We post for those who read and are searching for truth. I think it is good for people to read and consider what is offered. I like to offer truth more, but it is hard to read the caricatures and straw men offered, that need to be exposed.
Go with what you understand until God gives change.

This is the way God intended for us to disagree, and in the disagreement let those who are confused have a way to understand.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Calvinism alone starts with the assumption tahtw e aere all spiritually dead in Adam, and as such, it is impossible for us to do anything in and by ourselves to merit any kind of salvation
Do you accept the English word "if" as used as a conjunction in the scriptures?
Do you accept the fact that God is the first person to use it?

Here is the meaning according to the Cambridge Dictionary.


Meaning of the word "if" in English​

if​


conjunction

if conjunction (IN THAT SITUATION)​

used to say that a particular thing can or will happen only after something else happens or becomes true:

I will start at the beginning because that is where you say Calvinism begins.

First use of the word "if."

1 ¶ And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 ¶ And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 ¶ And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Isn't the two opposite possibilities of actions a choice to be made by Cain? If not, why not?

16 ¶ And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.


Conclusion; Cain must surely have been in the presence of the LORD with cognizant capabilities during these initial conversations with Jehovah, else how could he have decided to depart out of his presence?

Does this revelation not destroy several of the foundational doctrines of Calvinism? Is this translated correctly into English from Hebrew?

Strong's if
0518 Ma ‘im eem

a primitive particle; conditional part; {See TWOT on 111}

AV-if, not, or, when, whether, surely, doubtless, while, neither, saving, verily; 43

1) if
1a) conditional clauses
1a1) of possible situations
1a2) of impossible situations
1b) oath contexts
1b1) no, not
1c) if...if, whether...or, whether...or...or
1d) when, whenever
1e) since
1f) interrogative particle
1g) but rather
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
This is the way God intended for us to disagree, and in the disagreement let those who are confused have a way to understand.
I told you that I was a Calvinist and a Christian. Calvinism is, obviously, not difficult to understand. The more one accepts Calvinism the more they see the philosophy in every passage. Too much and God's Word becomes twisted. It no longer teaches what it states but what Calvinism wants it to teach. Calvinists from the past become the "God given teachers" of the faith whose role is to teach the "real" meaning of Scripture.

After being told the ink blot is a bat, pretty soon it becomes difficult to recognize the ink blot for what it realky is.

When I was a Calvinist it woukd have been impossible for the current me to have convinced me of the error. I realky did read Ephesians 1 and see Calvinism. That is called indoctrination, and perhaps I did it to myself by reading the philosophies of old dead men.

What changed my mind was God leading me back to His Word. I consciously decided to stop the philosophy and read what was actually written in Scripture. Doing this, it was very easy to see that Calvinism was seriously flawed and foreign to Scripture. It was harder to stop seeing "the bat" and study God's Word.

I say that just to say the best we can do in these threads is point to God's Word. Each person has to make their own choices.

Interpretations will still differ, which is fine. But we have to direct those who have strayed from His Word in doctrine back to Scripture, and if they refuse allow them to ho their way (shaking off the dust).
 
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Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I told you that I was a Calvinist and a Christian. Calvinism is, obviously, not difficult to understand. The more one accepts Calvinism the more they see the philosophy in every passage. Too much and God's Word becomes twisted. It no longer teaches what it states but what Calvinism wants it to teach. Calvinists from the past become the "God given teachers" of the faith whose role is to teach the "real" meaning of Scripture.

After being told the ink blot is a bat, pretty soon it becomes difficult to recognize the ink blot for what it realky is.

When I was a Calvinist it woukd have been impossible for the current me to have convinced me of the error. I realky did read Ephesians 1 and see Calvinism. That is called indoctrination, and perhaps I did it to myself by reading the philosophies of old dead men.

What changed my mind was God leading me back to His Word. I consciously decided to stop the philosophy and read what was actually written in Scripture. Doing this, it was very easy to see that Calvinism was seriously flawed and foreign to Scripture. It was harder to stop seeing "the bat" and study God's Word.

I say that just to say the best we can do in these threads is point to God's Word. Each person has to make their own choices.

Interpretations will still differ, which is fine. But we have to direct those who have strayed from His Word in doctrine back to Scripture, and if they refuse allow them to ho their way (shaking off the dust).

This would explain your attention to detail in exactly what the Scripture says and doesn't say.

I've noticed you pointing out several times the Scripture is not necessarily saying what is believed it to be saying.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
This would explain your attention to detail in exactly what the Scripture says and doesn't say.

I've noticed you pointing out several times the Scripture is not necessarily saying what is believed it to be saying.
Yes. I made too many assumptions in the past. What made it worse is I taught them and they influenced my preaching. I know I am forgiven, but it is still a scar. For me it is a reminder to be very careful with God's Word snd try my best not to stray.


God convicted me of teaching theory (kinda out of the blue, just woke up Monday morning convicted that a sermon strayed into theory over Scripture). And just saying "examine for yourselves" does not change the sermon.

I wrote down my belief on the topic and every passage supporting it. Then I erased passages that did not actually support my belief. In the end I had no passages.

It was a hard lesson, but one that I am grateful to have learned. One could spend a lifetime just with God's Word ("what is written" without philosophies or theories) if actually open to His Word. There is more depth than I could have imagined. And I am grateful to have moved on from the shallowness of of human wisdom.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Calvinism alone starts with the assumption tahtw e aere all spiritually dead in Adam, and as such, it is impossible for us to do anything in and by ourselves to merit any kind of salvation
Don't forget that most theologies (not all) hold the same ti be true (including Arminianism).

The best way to evaluate Calvinism is not in what it has in common with traditional Christianity but in how it differs. Make a list and compare that list to to God's Word. Disregard anything that is not in the Bible.
 
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