Calvinism and Arminianism foreknowledge compared with respect to time

[Barry Johnson]

Romans 8:29-30.
Ephesians 1:4-5.
Psalms 139.
Jeremiah 1:5.

" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
" [Even] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him." ( Isaiah 43:7 ).

Ephesians 2:1-10 as a passage, is even more descriptive.
There are many more, Barry.

Each and every child of God was in the mind of Jesus Christ when He went to the cross:

God is not inside time is he ?

 

[Dave G]

Of course

Then there are people in hell that He loves and that His Son has paid for their sins on the cross.
Why are they then in hell?

 

[Dave G]

" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 ).

Let's take a closer look at this passage:

1) Believers are God's workmanship.
2) God created the believer "in Christ Jesus".
3) He created them in Christ Jesus to good works.
4) That creation in Christ Jesus to good works, was ordained by God that they should walk in those good works.

Do you see the significance of what is stated here, @Barry Johnson and @Derf B ?

 

[Dave G]

God is not inside time is he ?

He created time ( Acts of the Apostles 17:26, Psalms 74:17 )

 

[37818]

God is not inside time is he ?

God is also throughout all time, Psalms 90:2, ". . . from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." And God being omnipresent, Acts of the Apostles 17:28, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; . . ." Or as the Psalmist wrote, Psalms 139:8, ". . . if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. . . ."

 

[Barry Johnson]

Romans 8:29-30.
Ephesians 1:4-5.
Psalms 139.
Jeremiah 1:5.

" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
" [Even] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him." ( Isaiah 43:7 ).

Ephesians 2:1-10 as a passage, is even more descriptive.
There are many more, Barry.

Each and every child of God was in the mind of Jesus Christ when He went to the cross:

God calls people af

Then there are people in hell that He loves and that His Son has paid for their sins on the cross.
Why are they then in hell?

Because no one is saved when Jesus died on the cross . Why do you believe people are in Hell paying for their sins ? Jesus payed for all sins but that is not how we are saved is it ? when Jesus said " it is finished, you were still on your way to hell . The only way to not go to hell is to be sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption.

 

[Barry Johnson]

God calls people af

Because no one is saved when Jesus died on the cross . Why do you believe people are in Hell paying for their sins ? Jesus payed for all sins but that is not how we are saved is it ? when Jesus said " it is finished, you were still on your way to hell . The only way to not go to hell is to be sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption.

Dont miss hear me . No one can be saved apart from the death of christ . God takes away the sin of the world, so all can freely come and be redeemed. But not all want to come. Unfortunately you have adopted somewhere on your journey the false notion that Jesus death secured only those whom were in the mind of God before they were created. Which you need to check out why calvernism is Gnosctism.

 

[Derf B]

He created time ( Acts of the Apostles 17:26, Psalms 74:17 )

Those verses don’t say anything about God creating time.

 

[Derf B]

Let's take a closer look at this passage:

1) Believers are God's workmanship.
2) God created the believer "in Christ Jesus".
3) He created them in Christ Jesus to good works.
4) That creation in Christ Jesus to good works, was ordained by God that they should walk in those good works.

Do you see the significance of what is stated here, @Barry Johnson and @Derf B ?

Are you saying there are some people God wants to walk in sin?

 

[37818]

Of course . The bible actually says he died for the sins of the whole world .

To be either one's Savior or one's condemning Judge. Romans 14:9, Romans 14:11. Romans 8:34.

 

[Derf B]

No one is saved by the ' death ' of Christ.

I guess I need some clarification from you. I thought all of us are saved by the death of Christ. He took our place on the cross we deserved, and as He died, He cried, “It is finished!” Was there more to be done?

 

[37818]

Those verses don’t say anything about God creating time.

So are you arguing in Acts of the Apostles 17:26 and in Psalms 74:17 God is dependant on time which He did not create?

 

[37818]

. . . as He died, He cried, “It is finished!” . . .

John 19:30, He was referring to what was already fully completed before He physically died, John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." The word translated "accomplished" is the very same word translated, "It is finished."

 

[Derf B]

You were not In Jesus in any sense before you existed .

This is key to this conversation!!!

 

[Dave G]

Because no one is saved when Jesus died on the cross

Sure they are.
It's called "the purpose of God according to election."

Why do you believe people are in Hell paying for their sins ?

Because if Christ died for everyone, and actually PAID for those sins at the cross, then God is:

1) Sending people to Hell that He loves.
2) Sending people to Hell whose sins are forgiven.

Jesus payed for all sins but that is not how we are saved is it ?

On what basis does God justify a sinner?
The basis of Christ's finished work on the cross for them, and His shed blood.

Who did Christ die for?
If all men, then you have a contradiction, Barry.
Look at it closer.

 

[Dave G]

God takes away the sin of the world, so all can freely come and be redeemed.

Again, if Christ took away the sins of all men, then there are people in Hell whose sins were taken away.
How do you get by that, Barry?

But not all want to come.

Does the Bible actually answer why men do not want to come to Christ?
Yes.

John 10:26.
John 6:64-65.
John 6:37-44.
John 3:19-20.

Unfortunately you have adopted somewhere on your journey the false notion that Jesus death secured only those whom were in the mind of God before they were created.

Unfortunately Barry, those answers are all found in God's word.

The same word I keep sharing with you, and the same words you apparently keep overlooking...
Why, I do not know.
@Barry Johnson , I get my understanding from God's word and God's word alone.

You are free to accuse me of being a "gnostic" if you like, but I'm being completely honest with you.
I don't have any use for books about theology, as God is my Teacher ( 1 John 2:20-27 ).

 

[Dave G]

The only way to not go to hell is to be sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption.

The only way not to go to Hell is to be saved by Almighty God, Barry.
All the rest, such as sealing, "calling", belief, faith, growth as a Christian and so forth are benefits, or "by-products" of a person having mercy and grace shown to them by a kind and loving God ( Titus 3:5-6 ).

The same God who is willing to show His wrath and to make His power known by sending unjust sinners to eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, is also willing to show His love to some of those sinners by bestowing the gift of eternal life upon them.
He makes them just by the blood of His Son.

Ultimately, He decides who to save, Barry.

Unfortunately, you've adopted the false notion that something you can do will result in gaining God's eternal favor.
That's not grace, Barry.
That is works ( Romans 11:5-6 ).

Eternal life is a gift, not a reward.

 

[Dave G]

Are you saying there are some people God wants to walk in sin?

No.
I'm saying that there are people that God leaves in their sins, and there are people that God graciously rescues from their willful and heard-hearted love of it.

 

[Dave G]

Those verses don’t say anything about God creating time.

" And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

" Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter. "

He created the seasons, the rain, the snow, the sun and the moon, the day and the night...
Everything by which we as men mark "time", He has created.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is a limited topic--not about all aspects of Calvinism and Arminianism, but only about how foreknowledge is viewed with respect to time.

I encourage disagreement with my suppositions, but please give me a reason and a replacement supposition for each one you oppose.

1. Calvinism's view of foreknowledge is that God knows the future because He ordains it.
2. Arminianism's view of foreknowledge is that God can see into the future, and thus knows the future.

Let's talk about #2 first. Assuming that God can look into the future requires that the future be fixed. Thus, if God sees something in the future that He wants to change, He cannot, else the future is not fixed. God thus becomes subservient to this fixed future--I'd liken it to the Greek Fates. Since we don't believe God is subservient to anything outside Himself, this view is incompatible with a Sovereign God, and thus it points us toward the first view.

#1 requires that in order to know the future, God has to manufacture it--He has to set it up from the very beginning, and thus, rightfully, God can be said to be sovereign. But it comes at a price. Here's why:

If God determines all the future, then every decision ever made by any creature of God is attributable to God. This has to be the case, because God would have determined all choices before any of the creatures were created. He can't look into a fixed future to find out how anyone will behave, as that's Arminianism. Thus, in order to know everything that anyone and everyone will choose to do in the future He is in the process of fixing, He determines it purely on the basis of His own pleasure.

Thus all sins anyone ever has or will commit is God's pleasure. The problem with this is that God is the author of sin--there's no one else around when the determination was made, so there's no one else to blame it on--it was decided before anyone else existed.

I'd appreciate your thoughts!
Derf

God is sovereign, and yet he factors into the future what will happen both his determined Will and permitting others decisions!