Calvinism and Free Will

[Alex Quackenbush]

It is apparent the problem lies in Andy talking past you Alex and not actually 'listening' to (or reading) what you are saying. That might not be your intent Andy but it IS what it 'appears' you are doing because you Alex has gone into some length explaining his position.

I appreciate the acknowledgment.

God did not decree there be sin and then determine how they would sin, but that God knew they would sin and decreed that it be.

This is not a mere nuance of distinction but a diverse theological separation and specific difference in theological implications. And the construct of thought here as you have stated I think represents a very complex doctrine with ease and simplicity in a most supreme fashion.

Allan, and it appears npetreley agrees when he says:

God knew exactly how they would react and foreordained it to be so.

 

[Allan]

We might could get around this philosophically but not scripturally.

Please show scriptually otherwise.

 

[Allan]

What exactly are you arguing, Allan?

The fact that God did not decree there be sin and then determine how they would sin, but that God knew they would sin and decreed that it be

 

[Allan]

This is not a mere nuance of distinction but a diverse theological separation and specific difference in theological implications.

I agree.

Allan, and it appears npetreley agrees when he says:

Originally Posted by npetreley
God knew exactly how they would react and foreordained it to be so.

I would assume the same, but he will not agree.

 

[TCGreek]

The fact that God did not decree there be sin and then determine how they would sin, but that God knew they would sin and decreed that it be

1. The decretive will of God is fundamental to who God is and to reduce that to some domesticated form, is truly misleading.

2. With all due respect, your statement makes no sense.

 

[npetreley]

Allan: God knew they would sin and decreed that it be

Me: God knew exactly how they would react and foreordained it to be so

The difference:

 

[Allan]

Praise God that He determined sin would come about! For I would not know of His mercy, nor His wrath, nor would I know as much (or perhaps even anything) of His righteousness if it were not for sin. To God be the glory for all things.

For no real reason I will argue this :laugh:

Are you saying God could not have His creation know He is merciful or that He is a God of wrath, without sin? That God just couldn't have done that?

It was His choice to allow it be this way, but by that same token He could have just as easily created us knowing all of that to.

 

[TCGreek]

Please show scriptually otherwise.

According to Christian apologist, Ravi Zacharias, "To give more evidence to him who loves not the truth is to give more room for misinterpretation."

 

[Allan]

1. The decretive will of God is fundamental to who God is and to reduce that to some domesticated form, is truly misleading.

2. With all due respect, your statement makes no sense.

So you contend that God DID in fact decree there be sin and THEN determine how they would sin.

I relish your scriptural support of that. Notice I said scriptural support brother.

 

[npetreley]

For no real reason I will argue this :laugh:

Are you saying God could not have His creation know He is merciful or that He is a God of wrath, without sin? That God just couldn't have done that?

It was His choice to allow it be this way, but by that same token He could have just as easily created us knowing all of that to.

So what you're saying that God would just create us with magical knowledge of His mercy without Him ever having to demonstrate it in order for us to experience it first hand? Well, maybe if you can demonstrate that you "know" this from some special revelation from God, I'll consider it. Otherwise, it only makes sense to me that we can know God's mercy from His demonstrating it. And God can't demonstrate mercy without a creature that doesn't deserve it (a sinner), and a sacrifice (Jesus) to make it possible.

 

[Allan]

According to Christian apologist, Ravi Zacharias, "To give more evidence to him who loves not the truth is to give more room for misinterpretation."

It is sad to see you play such games when asked to biblically support your position.

However, God be the judge between you and me and your statement concerning my love for the truth.

 

[npetreley]

So you contend that God DID in fact decree there be sin and THEN determine how they would sin.

Now you're talking the order of God's motives. You're changing the subject to something you have no special insight into anymore than we do.

 

[Allan]

So what you're saying that God would just create us with magical knowledge of His mercy without Him ever having to demonstrate it in order for us to experience it first hand? Well, maybe if you can demonstrate that you "know" this from some special revelation from God, I'll consider it. Otherwise, it only makes sense to me that we can know God's mercy from His demonstrating it. And God can't demonstrate mercy without a creature that doesn't deserve it (a sinner), and a sacrifice (Jesus) to make it possible.

So you contend that God is not all powerful unless He proves it?
God is not all knowing unless He verifies it?
And that God is limited in what He can do even when it does not go against Neither His nature nor character?

You truly beleive that God could not create a creation knowing that His is fully God in every aspect? Your God really IS limited.

 

[npetreley]

However, God be the judge between you and me and your statement concerning my love for the truth.

I can say Amen to that.

 

[Allan]

Now you're talking the order of God's motives. You're changing the subject to something you have no special insight into anymore than we do.

So you agree that no one really knows these things and that they are contrived.

 

[npetreley]

So you contend that God is not all powerful unless He proves it?
God is not all knowing unless He verifies it?
And that God is limited in what He can even when it does not go against Neither His nature nor character?

What are you talking about? I said nothing about what God is, but about what we know of God.

You truly beleive that God could not create a creation knowing that His is fully God in every aspect? You God really IS limited.

And with that tired refrain ("You [sic] God really IS limited"), I will gladly put you on ignore, along with webdog and the pompous quack.

 

[TCGreek]

So you contend that God DID in fact decree there be sin and THEN determine how they would sin.

I relish your scriptural support of that. Notice I said scriptural support brother.

God decreed that sin should be, to which you also agreed in a roundabout manner, and also decreed the HOW through man's moral agency (Lk 22:22).

 

[TCGreek]

It is sad to see you play such games when asked to biblically support your position.

However, God be the judge between you and me and your statement concerning my love for the truth.

I'm sorry that you see my sober quote as a game. And I make no apology for my quote--it is what it is.

 

[Allan]

I'm sorry that you see my sober quote as a game. And I make no apology for my quote--it is what it is.

Then you my friend need to repent.
My love for the truth exceeds my love for my doctrine. And I have place my doctrine squarely upon what God has revealed to me through Truth of His word.
You 'sober quote' was nothing more pride.

 

[npetreley]

God decreed that sin should be, to which you also agreed in a roundabout manner, and also decreed the HOW through man's moral agency (Lk 22:22).

Or, the more general...

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? [Obviously some here think they are God's counsellor - grin] 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Here, the KJV is a little misleading, because the "unbelief" God has bound men to is actually this:

543 apeitheia {ap-i'-thi-ah}
from 545; TDNT - 6:11,818; n f
AV - unbelief 4, disobedient 3; 7
1) obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
(strong's number 543)

So "bound them all to disobedience" is actually more accurate.