Calvinism and John 3:16

[atpollard]

If this is the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, then it is CLEAR that GOD SO LOVES, that He SENT His Unique Son for this RACE, for their SALVATION!

“whosoever believes” … (not all without exception).

 

[SavedByGrace]

Having said that, you, nor anyone else can prove Calvinism wrong

John 3:16-18 DOES!

 

[SavedByGrace]

“whosoever believes” … (not all without exception).

the ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION, is NOT "those who believe", but THOSE FOR WHOM JESUS DIED.

 

[SavedByGrace]

It actually says they are condemned already, not that they will be condemned.

This is consistent with passages earlier in John speaking of the “light” coming into the world but the world rejecting the light because their deeds were evil. and those that “practice truth come to the light” and that their deeds are revealed to be “wrought in God” or revealed to be a “work of God.”

peace to you

I think that you "Reformed" have some difficulty in grasping what this passage says.

It does NOT say, that EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION, will be saved, because that is "universal salvation", which is IMPOSSIBLE. What John 3:16-18 does say, is that JESUS TASTED DEATH FOR EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION, that is, THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE. But ONLY those who BELIEVE will be saved. The others from THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, are eternally LOST

 

[SavedByGrace]

True. "World" here cannot mean everyone without exception. John's usage of κοσμος is varied in his Gospel.

The Archangel

even JOHN CALVIN says:

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

 

[canadyjd]

I think that you "Reformed" have some difficulty in grasping what this passage says.

It does NOT say, that EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION, will be saved, because that is "universal salvation", which is IMPOSSIBLE. What John 3:16-18 does say, is that JESUS TASTED DEATH FOR EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION, that is, THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE. But ONLY those who BELIEVE will be saved. The others from THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, are eternally LOST

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

even JOHN CALVIN says:

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

sbw, your incapacity to understand what Calvin is saying is all on you. Calvin, however, is not saying what you are attempting to force upon him.

 

[Van]

Does humanity mean all people without exception or just all humanity as not some subset like Calvinism's elect. Answer Yes!

 

[The Archangel]

even JOHN CALVIN says:

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

So? This is the "appeal to authority" fallacy. Actually, I have never read Calvin at length. All you've done is post something you agree with. You can't argue why Calvin is right or wrong. So, you're only second-handing his material.

The word is not--and cannot be--"whosoever." As I've said before: The translation "whosoever" is wrong. The relevant portion of the passage : πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν. Whether this portion is translate as "whosoever believes" (the wrong way) or "all the ones believing" (the right way) hinges on the definite article before pisteuown. Here's where we go into the deep end of the pool:

The masculine singular definite article in Greek is ὁ. (Notice the "rough" breathing mark...it looks like an apostrophe over the letter). The neuter singular relative pronoun in Greek is ὅ. (Notice the accent mark next to the rough breathing mark).

The neuter relative pronoun might be translated "whosoever;" the definite article cannot be. If, indeed, John wanted to convey the idea of "whosoever," he would have likely done it with a relative pronoun. But, here's the thing: The participle "the one believing" is a masculine singular participle. The relative pronoun that couples with a masculine singular noun is ὅς, not ὅ. ὅ is the relative pronoun that would be used for a neuter singular noun.

So, it is not possible to take ὁ as a relative pronoun because to do so would break the Greek grammatical rules related to gender. Therefore, this participle cannot be translated "whosoever believes." The proper translation is "the believing one" or "the one who believes."

Now, why don't you tell me why or why not--without saying "...But Calvin says!"

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Thanks AA. It is informative, especially concerning the usage history of kosmos. One major error I see in the article is this statement:

"...The older general sense of “order” for κόσμος is not found at all in the New Testament....." I disagree.
How else can John 18:20 be interpreted to mean other than the 'ordered system/arrangement of the Jews', which I think applies elsewhere in the NT.

If I recall correctly the idea of "order" was more in Attic period. While Koine is not Attic and Attic is not Koine, some "left-overs" (if you will) can, perhaps, carry through. I'm not sure I agree with your translation in this instance, but I'm glad you enjoyed the article and were able to interact with it well.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[SavedByGrace]

πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν

is correctly translated, "anyone who believes in Him", the "πᾶς", is from "τὸν κόσμον". The "ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων", of verse 18, is also from "τὸν κόσμον". Which means that "τὸν κόσμον", can only mean here in this passage, "the entire human race, with no exceptions". There is no other way to understand the words in verses 16-18.

 

[JesusFan]

So? This is the "appeal to authority" fallacy. Actually, I have never read Calvin at length. All you've done is post something you agree with. You can't argue why Calvin is right or wrong. So, you're only second-handing his material.

The word is not--and cannot be--"whosoever." As I've said before: The translation "whosoever" is wrong. The relevant portion of the passage : πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν. Whether this portion is translate as "whosoever believes" (the wrong way) or "all the ones believing" (the right way) hinges on the definite article before pisteuown. Here's where we go into the deep end of the pool:

The masculine singular definite article in Greek is ὁ. (Notice the "rough" breathing mark...it looks like an apostrophe over the letter). The neuter singular relative pronoun in Greek is ὅ. (Notice the accent mark next to the rough breathing mark).

The neuter relative pronoun might be translated "whosoever;" the definite article cannot be. If, indeed, John wanted to convey the idea of "whosoever," he would have likely done it with a relative pronoun. But, here's the thing: The participle "the one believing" is a masculine singular participle. The relative pronoun that couples with a masculine singular noun is ὅς, not ὅ. ὅ is the relative pronoun that would be used for a neuter singular noun.

So, it is not possible to take ὁ as a relative pronoun because to do so would break the Greek grammatical rules related to gender. Therefore, this participle cannot be translated "whosoever believes." The proper translation is "the believing one" or "the one who believes."

Now, why don't you tell me why or why not--without saying "...But Calvin says!"

The Archangel

It identifies and marks out and defines to us that the one in mind of the author are those who have received Jesus thru faith and are now redeemed,
It does not mean all who hear, but all who have received after hearing him as lord and Savior!

 

[robycop3]

The answer is simple. 16 reads "whoever", NOT "whoever if pre-chosen or elect".

 

[Reformed1689]

the ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION, is NOT "those who believe", but THOSE FOR WHOM JESUS DIED.

No, you read that into the text.

 

[Reformed1689]

The answer is simple. 16 reads "whoever", NOT "whoever if pre-chosen or elect".

Except this is not true. It does not just say whoever. It says whoever believes. Who believes? Those chosen.

 

[The Archangel]

is correctly translated, "anyone who believes in Him", the "πᾶς", is from "τὸν κόσμον". The "ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων", of verse 18, is also from "τὸν κόσμον". Which means that "τὸν κόσμον", can only mean here in this passage, "the entire human race, with no exceptions". There is no other way to understand the words in verses 16-18.

False.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

For God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have everlasting life.
​

Calvinism denies Christ died as a ransom for all humanity, that world in John 3:16 refers to humanity, and that a person is able in an unregenerate state to believe in Christ such that God will credit their faith as righteousness and place them into Christ's spiritual body.

Petty much a total rejection of the gospel.​

 

[AustinC]

For God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have everlasting life.
​

Calvinism denies Christ died as a ransom for all humanity, that world in John 3:16 refers to humanity, and that a person is able in an unregenerate state to believe in Christ such that God will credit their faith as righteousness and place them into Christ's spiritual body.

Petty much a total rejection of the gospel.​

False

Calvinism says Christ fully ransomed all who believe.

You, however, make the ransom universal for all humanity and ignore the fact that belief is important. (You are presenting Universalism)

Moreso, in asserting that a dead person (unregenerate state) is able to believe, you openly deny what God tells us, which is "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ." (Eph 2:4-5)

Your assertion is works salvation.

Therefore it is you who "pretty much" rejects the gospel.

John 3:16 is fully supporting Calvinism. You cannot grasp this because you have embraced Universalism (with a Vanian twist).

 

[Van]

False

Calvinism says Christ fully ransomed all who believe.

You, however, make the ransom universal for all humanity and ignore the fact that belief is important. (You are presenting Universalism)

Moreso, in asserting that a dead person (unregenerate state) is able to believe, you openly deny what God tells us, which is "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ." (Eph 2:4-5)

Therefore it is you who "pretty much" rejects the gospel.

John 3:16 is fully supporting Calvinism. You cannot grasp this because you have embraced Universalism (with a Vanian twist).

What an idiotic post, did I refer to the subset of all who believe? Nope.
And you reference to Ephesians 2 does not say people spiritually dead cannot believe, but the opposite, they did believe and thus were placed into Christ's spiritual body and together with Christ were made alive.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Who believes? Those chosen

rank heresy!