Calvinism and the SBC (a 2013 discussion between Hankings and Mohler)

[MennoSota]

Since I came into this discussion late, I'm going to bow out of this thread. However, I'll leave with this final comment. Synergism (better known as Arminianism) is alive in well in many Baptist denominations, including the SBC.

Peace.


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Agreed. The debate is in where churches align on the spectrum.

 

[MennoSota]

The resurgence of Calvinism is the dividing force. The traditionalists just want left alone and not be yapped at constantly about our doctrine.

That is a mischaracterization.
Non-calvinists want to retain control of their church and doctrine. Calvinists want to reform the church along biblical teaching in regard to salvation.

If you want to be left alone, lock the doors of the church when you enter and tell people to go elsewhere. You and your church can die, comfortable in your ways.

 

[Revmitchell]

That is a mischaracterization.

uh no its not.

Non-calvinists want to retain control of their church and doctrine.

Every church wants to do that

Calvinists want to reform the church along biblical

To bad they want to use dishonest practices to do it.

teaching in regard to salvation.

They already have it thank anywayt

If you want to be left alone, lock the doors of the church when you enter and tell people to go elsewhere. You and your church can die, comfortable in your ways.

this has nothing to do with the subject.

 

[MennoSota]

uh no its not.



Every church wants to do that



To bad they want to use dishonest practices to do it.



They already have it thank anywayt



this has nothing to do with the subject.

Yes
Yes
No
No
No

 

[Iconoclast]

He did say they're getting their rear ends handed to them because they're not willing to do the work necessary to do deep thinking.

But honestly, what I've seen is that almost all the work isn't really work at all. I told him people who smoke pot are some of the deepest thinkers I've met

And they're not working. They're lighting a joint and getting dizzy . And pondering.

This lack of study can be found in many churches regardless of what they hold to as a statement of faith. This manifests itself in almost every area of study.Jonc made a solid point of the love of God needs to manifest in every professed Christian.
It stands to reason that the more of the word and teaching we know....the more we can love God and neighbor by keeping the law....romans13:8-10

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes.

We have Calvinists who hold a type of theology that fills in the blanks to what Scripture has left unanswered, sometimes to the extent of denying Scripture itself. Here are a couple of examples:

There are some who will tell you that for three hours on the Cross God abandoned Jesus by withdrawing His actual presence in such a way that Jesus experienced what the lost will experience at Judgment. Not only can this be refuted simply by Scripture, but such a detailed explanation is nowhere to be found in Scripture itself.

Some have narrowed down their theories to the point that they deny God can actually forgive man (God must exercise wrath on each sinful act, regardless as to where that wrath falls). This is a skewed view of Penal Substitution, but it is also an error that often creeps into Calvinistic circles.

Another example is the anti-missions movement. This was something I mentioned that Howell fought early in his ministry at the SBC. These Calvinists rejected active evangelism because one could find themselves witnessing to a non-elect person, urging them to believe in opposition to God's will. Or consider Daniel Parker's two seed theology (as an extreme view).

As I say this, please keep in mind that I am Calvinistic and I do believe in Penal Substitution. But I also believe that there are those who hold right views wrongly.

Hello JonC....on my phone during lunch break now...you raise good points of discussion that I would like to respond on my laptop in a few hours.

 

[Iconoclast]

Founders (Nettles) recently did some posts that is about the historic Calvinistic roots of the SBC: Founders Ministries

Nice link...thanks for posting

 

[Iconoclast]

I know the SBC started with Calvinists. It also started with anti segregation racists.

That might also be true,and steps have been taken to repent of that.
But the departure was from Calvinism...to listen to these so called traditionalists....they have it the other way around.

 

[Yeshua1]

The issue is that synergism, while a characteristic of Arminianism, is not Arminianism itself. But you do bring out another problem with the debate within the SBC. Terms are being loosely used and poorly redefined (synergism, to varying degrees, is indeed present in many SBC churches but Arminianism is contrary to SBC doctrine).

This problem goes beyond the SBC also (probably everything we are dealing with exceeds SBC boundaries). I've read many articles about the Arminianism of Anabaptist theology. Don't miss that!!! Anabaptist theology, which rejects the view of Atonement both Calvinism and Arminianism hinges upon (the Penal Substitution John Calvin articulated and John Wesley strongly defended), is being called "Arminian" because of its synergistic nature. Likewise we see just about any type of soteriological determinism referred to as "Calvinism".

Another interesting error people make in labeling others is to call Open Theism "Arminian". I think that it may be of that trajectory (just as Arminianism is of Calvinistic trajectory), and I believe both share a common understanding of the mode of Divine Knowledge (a pre-knowledge of events). But it is pretty lazy to use "Arminianism" and "Open Theology" interchangeably.

This vagueness is a type of laziness (perhaps apathy...or misunderstanding) that is not helpful at all.

Many would be surprised to learn that Calvinism and classic Arminian theology as purposed by its early advocated did not seem to be nearly as wide apart on the theologixcal spectrum as most assume that it is today, and would say that the 2 extremes that must be rejected by both position are Open Theism and the viewpoint that basically man is still good even after the Fall....

 

[Reynolds]

I think if you take the time to look closely you'll find Protestants across the board that were members of the KKK and held racist ideas. Some of this we have to chalk up to a different worldview (sin, and wrong, but we can't pretend then was now).

For an example, read George Whitefield on why slavery is a good thing.

I believe we view history through the eyes of the generation in which it occurred. The SBC is unique in that it was born of a split and it was on the wrong side of the split. Where it really falls lacking is 1950-late 70s.

 

[Reynolds]

That is a mischaracterization.
Non-calvinists want to retain control of their church and doctrine. Calvinists want to reform the church along biblical teaching in regard to salvation.

If you want to be left alone, lock the doors of the church when you enter and tell people to go elsewhere. You and your church can die, comfortable in your ways.

We are doing great. I left the church I was a member of that was in demise. The Church I now attend is growing. It is not Calvinist.
Your idea of "reform" is really nothing but causing problems.

 

[MennoSota]

We are doing great. I left the church I was a member of that was in demise. The Church I now attend is growing. It is not Calvinist.
Your idea of "reform" is really nothing but causing problems.

No, your idea of growth is only surface numbers and shallow waters.

 

[Reynolds]

No, your idea of growth is only surface numbers and shallow waters.

No, you can't get any numbers so you criticize those who do.

 

[MennoSota]

No, you can't get any numbers so you criticize those who do.

LOL, the church I attend has an average of 250 per Sunday. Another Reformed Baptist church nearby averages 1500 at their main campus with a number of satellite campuses in the metro area.

Why are people coming? Because they have been gripped by Sovereign grace.

The Arminian SBC church in the area...has not topped more than 50 people for 15 years. They accept every sin without rebuke and with no discipline. They wallow in the shallow waters. God cannot bless a church that refuses to be obedient to His word.

Numbers are irrelevant, however. I have gone to small churches that God has blessed with saints who have walked the path and trusted God through trial and temptation. I am in awe of their faith. A congregation that follows hard to the cross is of much more value than a congregation who lives in the shallows and rides the waves with no direction.

 

[Greektim]

I love the Doctrines of Grace. But this "my theology brings in more people to church than yours" is not fruitful on any side. If you hold to the DoG, you maintain that your church is the size it is b/c God has decreed it so as well as decreed the means (rich theology as a drawing influence). Anything else is synergism. While it is helpful for Christians to sharpen each other's iron, those who hold to the DoG must acknowledge that God has decreed the disagreement without any deficiency or insecurity to his nature and will bring all his elect into alignment with the truth one day. God's will be done.

What's a mod got to do to shut down a thread?

 

[Reynolds]

LOL, the church I attend has an average of 250 per Sunday. Another Reformed Baptist church nearby averages 1500 at their main campus with a number of satellite campuses in the metro area.

Why are people coming? Because they have been gripped by Sovereign grace.

The Arminian SBC church in the area...has not topped more than 50 people for 15 years. They accept every sin without rebuke and with no discipline. They wallow in the shallow waters. God cannot bless a church that refuses to be obedient to His word.

Numbers are irrelevant, however. I have gone to small churches that God has blessed with saints who have walked the path and trusted God through trial and temptation. I am in awe of their faith. A congregation that follows hard to the cross is of much more value than a congregation who lives in the shallows and rides the waves with no direction.

The church you describe is not arminian. Arminian does not teach greasy grace, they teach loss of salvation when one sins. There are two mega close by, neither Calvinistic, both average about 7,000 each at that particular campus on Sunday. Both also have satellites, I am not counting those numbers.

 

[MennoSota]

The church you describe is not arminian. Arminian does not teach greasy grace, they teach loss of salvation when one sins. There are two mega close by, neither Calvinistic, both average about 7,000 each at that particular campus on Sunday. Both also have satellites, I am not counting those numbers.

Is the pastor Joel Osteen?[emoji57]

If half the church imbibes in a beer will the membership shrink by half due to so many losing their salvation? [emoji41]

Perhaps I better call up my Nazarene relatives to find out if your flock is in danger of burning. [emoji33]

LOL, you make it too easy.

 

[JonC]

What's a mod got to do to shut down a thread?

Check the box in mod tools.

 

[MennoSota]

Check the box in mod tools.

[emoji41]

 

[Reynolds]

Is the pastor Joel Osteen?[emoji57]

If half the church imbibes in a beer will the membership shrink by half due to so many losing their salvation? [emoji41]

Perhaps I better call up my Nazarene relatives to find out if your flock is in danger of burning. [emoji33]

LOL, you make it too easy.

You twist what is said into lies. Neither congregation is arminian. They are traditional.