JonC,
Hello JONC,
Knowing that God is sovereign I would say not one. As a Calvinist grows in grace, he also grows in making a biblically accurate presentation.
Spurgeon spoke against hyper-Calvinists. He also would allude to some who had wrong motives as Jerome is quick and quite eager to point out.
Hello JONC,
I wonder how many people have been driven from the gospel of Christ by well intentioned Calvinists who preach Calvinism as if it were the gospel itself.
Knowing that God is sovereign I would say not one. As a Calvinist grows in grace, he also grows in making a biblically accurate presentation.
Spurgeon spoke strongly against “cage staged” Calvinists (although he did not use the term). James White outright condemned the “caged staged” element within the Reformed camp.
Spurgeon spoke against hyper-Calvinists. He also would allude to some who had wrong motives as Jerome is quick and quite eager to point out.
Both Spurgeon and White recognized the damage Calvinism can do in the hands of immature Christians.[/QUOTE]
No. They used that term as an in house kind of correction offered because of the radical change brought about by many believers seeing these truths and getting so excited about it they could barely contain themselves.
Dr. White has opposed several reformed groups who get too smug and go past the doctrine and it's biblical boundaries. The term was not used to be wielded by those such as yourself who despise the doctrine[ you give a form of lip service to it, claim you once held it,etc]....but it has been seen that you have departed from many of these ideas. That is your right to do so, as it is our right to identify what you are about.
I suspect this is true of anyone who holds their understanding as if it were the actual gospel of Jesus Christ.
You have said it has nothing to do with the gospel. So we can take that into consideration.
The OP. is saying that Calvinism understood according to the scriptures includes every aspect of the good news , from every angle. I do not think you understand that, that is why you have moved away from it. It is tied into every part of the Christian life.
How so you might ask?
Just the fact of effectual calling speaks to what we are called to. Called to be saints, called to be holy, called to be witnesses, not one place is outside of our calling,
1cor;
1 Corinthians 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
Christians who are Calvinists see it as the complete message of scripture, from genesis to revelation. You seem to deny this by your statement. If you could clarify your statement it might help.The mark of a Christian is that he or she leans not on an understanding of the gospel but on the gospel itself and the One of whom the gospel testifies.
.The spiritual complexity of the gospel is not a cognitive challenge. Our understanding is finite. We see now through a glass darkly. Resting in the gospel some Christians will understand God’s work, much of what is not actually stated in Scripture, to be akin to Calvinism
Okay, no one is saying otherwise. Every person is at a different level of understanding and maturity.
Others will see it as free-will theology, Arminianism, or something in between.
Of course, some see that, and it might have several reasons for it...maybe ITL's list has some value here. His list might be close to why it is so,
But Christians cannot exchange their understanding, their theology, for the gospel itself without being unfaithful to the One who died to give us life.
You say this because you do not share that understanding. Calvinists see the teaching as the biblical explanation of the triune God unfolding His redemptive purpose to the Church in time; eph3
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Calvinism, Arminianism, and free-will theology are human understandings of the gospel. They are reasoned interpretations of God’s working of redemption throughout the Biblical narrative. They incorporate the exact same text, affirm the same Scriptures but arrive at different conclusions via human philosophy and reasoning.
That is how you see it. Not everyone agrees with you. In fact I disagree with you. You do not speak for everyone on this. That is why there is room for free exchange of ideas.
I would not think of editing or deleting anything you say. You are free to express your view openly. We are free to consider what you say and agree or not agree.
Yes. You might be right, you might be wrong, Post your ideas and we will post ours. The readers can examine them and make up their own minds.That is the benefit of discussing such things.
Correct, we can agree here.Christians are able to explain their understanding and how they arrive at a particular conclusion. People of an opposing view may not be persuaded to change positions, but they can better understand their brothers in Christ and re-examine their own understanding. Christians do not have to agree to help one another, and they do not have to be disagreeable in their disagreements.
Is Calvinism the gospel?
Yes, when understood according to the scriptures it absolutely is. When turned into a caricature, it will not appear to be so.
Of course not.[/QUOTE]
That is your view, that is why you are not a Calvinist, okay...
Calvinism is not the power of God unto salvation for all who believe.
Preaching all the scriptures in their fullness is. That is what Calvinism is about.
You have not defined that at all, however. Could you clarify it?But the gospel of Jesus Christ is.
That is a caricature of what in reality is taking place. there is truth and error. If someone denies the trinity, no one is confused about the need to stand firm against the error.Ism-envy (“my ism is better than yours”) is not a Christian trait.
We separate on one level with other believers over doctrine, but on another we are united in Christ[/QUOTE]
Yes, with true believers.
The problem is, every professed believer might not hold to the true gospel. God is the judge of that.(in the one true and complete gospel held by every single believer).
