Calvinism or Arminianism

[TomMann]

"Thank God He had no respect of persons but gave us all a chance to go to Heaven and not just the Calvinist."

By chance, I am dumbfounded by this statement.......

 

[bound]

I am one who is happily Arminian with regards to God's Grace giving 'all' the possibility of Salvation. :love2:

Peace and God Bless.

 

[J.D.]

"Thank God He had no respect of persons but gave us all a chance to go to Heaven and not just the Calvinist."

By chance, I am dumbfounded by this statement.......

I think you're on to something there. Can anyone give me a theological definition of "Chance"?

 

[Brother Bob]

I think you're on to something there. Can anyone give me a theological definition of "Chance"?

Probably along the lines of this:

Ecc 9:11I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race [is] not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

 

[J.D.]

Probably along the lines of this:

Ecc 9:11I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race [is] not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

So what is this passage telling us? That men are saved by chance?

Doesn't Ecclesiastes give us a view of things "under the sun"? What is "chance" above the sun, that is, in heaven?

 

[Jarthur001]

Probably along the lines of this:

Ecc 9:11I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race [is] not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Hello Bob,


Lets talk about context. What do you feel this verse is saying?


In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

So what is this passage telling us? That men are saved by chance?

Doesn't Ecclesiastes give us a view of things "under the sun"? What is "chance" above the sun, that is, in heaven?

Bingo!!!!


Ecclesiastes is about life without God!!!

 

[Brother Bob]

I understand it to mean "chance" under Heaven. I take the world as a place to get ready to enter eternity, either Heaven or the Lake.

I think there is no dispute on what "time" is.

I never knew there was a dispute on what "chance" is.

 

[Jarthur001]

I understand it to mean "chance" under Heaven. I take the world as a place to get ready to enter eternity, either Heaven or the Lake.

I think there is no dispute on what "time" is.

I never knew there was a dispute on what "chance" is.

Hello bob,


The "Preacher" makes it clear the subject of the book. If God is not in control, or when we view life without God in mind....or as the preacher says...when we just see life "under the sun"...then life is but chance.

Ecc 9:11I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race [is] not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

 

[Brother Bob]

nor the battle to the strong

I think it is saying using just this one phrase that there is a chance that the weak might win the battle such as David and the Giant.
In other words ALL have a chance. I mean that even the dumb have a chance to get rich or the man who is unskilled could end up with the reward.

It all is under the sun for us and its what we do "under the sun" that determines whether we will ever be above it.

 

[J.D.]

I think it is saying using just this one phrase that there is a chance that the weak might win the battle such as David and the Giant.
In other words ALL have a chance. I mean that even the dumb have a chance to get rich or the man who is unskilled could end up with the reward.

It all is under the sun for us and its what we do "under the sun" that determines whether we will ever be above it.

Brother Bob, I was just wondering, have you ever been wrong about anything? I sure have. And I hope that I'm man enough to admit it when I am.

James has got you dead to rights on this point. Just admit it.

 

[webdog]

I failt to see what James is getting at. Life isn't "chance". God knows every minute detail about every life on this planet, and in His sovereignty uses each situation to bring Him glory.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob, I was just wondering, have you ever been wrong about anything? I sure have. And I hope that I'm man enough to admit it when I am.

James has got you dead to rights on this point. Just admit it.

One time!

I don't know what you mean by "got you" but I only gave what I believe the scripture to be saying. James has a reason for it not to mean what it says that "time and chance has happened unto all", and so do you. It is called Calvinism slant.

 

[jne1611]

I understand it to mean "chance" under Heaven. I take the world as a place to get ready to enter eternity, either Heaven or the Lake.

I think there is no dispute on what "time" is.

I never knew there was a dispute on what "chance" is.

Well. Salvation left to chance is no salvation at all.

 

[jne1611]

One time!

I don't know what you mean by "got you" but I only gave what I believe the scripture to be saying. James has a reason for it not to mean what it says that "time and chance has happened unto all", and so do you. It is called Calvinism slant.

Its called context. That means something to the Calvinist.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Its called context. That means something to the Calvinist.

A good course on hermeneutics would help many. Some of the worst exegesis I've ever seen has been on this board. That is one thing I can say for sure.... the calvinist do their homework on exegesis.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

I reply to your post both yes and no. You said.."In other words ALL have a chance"....Yes...and this is what the preacher views life when there is no thought of God. This book must be read from beginning to end to understand it. Sorry for going on and on about it, but this book can change you life if you understand it fully. It may be the most needed book for the unsaved world today.

Ecc1

1The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.

2Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

3What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?

Right from the start the writer tell us the meaning...

I placed this in bold. The answer is just above...NOTHING!! Life is worthless without God.

Ecc 1
14I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

In Chapter 2...the preacher starts looking


1st stop...pleasure and things...

1I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will prove thee with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold, this also is vanity.

2I said of laughter, It is mad: and of mirth, What doeth it?

3I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was that good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life.

4I made me great works; I builded me houses; I planted me vineyards:

5I made me gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits:

6I made me pools of water, to water therewith the wood that bringeth forth trees:

7I got me servants and maidens, and had servants born in my house; also I had great possessions of great and small cattle above all that were in Jerusalem before me:

8I gathered me also silver and gold, and the peculiar treasure of kings and of the provinces: I gat me men singers and women singers, and the delights of the sons of men, as musical instruments, and that of all sorts.

9So I was great, and increased more than all that were before me in Jerusalem: also my wisdom remained with me.

10And whatsoever mine eyes desired I kept not from them, I withheld not my heart from any joy; for my heart rejoiced in all my labour: and this was my portion of all my labour.

11Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.

Next wisdom...

12And I turned myself to behold wisdom, and madness, and folly: for what can the man do that cometh after the king? even that which hath been already done.

13Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.

14The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.

15Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity.

after all this...check out 17-18

17Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

18Yea, I hated all my labour which I had taken under the sun: because I should leave it unto the man that shall be after me.

Chapter 3 16...."under the sun"...the wicked get away with being wicked. Meaning...without God there is no reason to be righteous

16And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

17I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

verse 19...without God...man is just like a beast.

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts

; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

now chapter 4 makes sense when it say...

2Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.

Life without God is not worth living..

I'll not go though the whole book...one more..the key passage....

The preacher sees that it is when you look at DEATH that life is now wroth living...
Chapter 7...

1A good name is better than precious ointment;

and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

2It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart.

3Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better.

It is HERE that the preacher finds the meaning of life. I can write tons of pages on this passage...but i want to move to your passage now...

Now we can read your passage and understand...

Chapter 9..

10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

NOTE...now he returns to the view of life without God and says....

11I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

12For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

13This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me:

I need to cut this short because of work. I'll get back to it tonight.

In Christ..James

 

[jne1611]

A good course on hermeneutics would help many. Some of the worst exegesis I've ever seen has been on this board. That is one thing I can say for sure.... the calvinist do their homework on exegesis.

That's for sure. Verse by Verse Exposition. It's the only way to find the true value and meaning of a text. That's why I like James' explanations. He has done his homework.

 

[Dave]

That's for sure. Verse by Verse Exposition. It's the only way to find the true value and meaning of a text. That's why I like James' explanations. He has done his homework.

Yeah, verse by verse, always taking it in context rather than just picking a verse here and a verse there to try to refute long passages that carry the idea through.

 

[bound]

A good course on hermeneutics would help many. Some of the worst exegesis I've ever seen has been on this board. That is one thing I can say for sure.... the calvinist do their homework on exegesis.

So what you are saying is before the 16th Century we were all just stumbling around with a limited understanding of Scripture until good ole Calvin established his exegesis?

Although I believe that Calvin, not Calvinism, established a pretty good 'systematic' (i.e. intellectual) understanding of what the Bible states in it's most literal sense I see no reason to assume such an exegesis or sense of Scripture was historically shared by the Apostles or later Theologians before the Age of the Enlightenment. There is definitely a departure in the continuity in Christianity from it's inception as a historical religion and the development of it as an intellectual discipline of Scriptural Interpretation in Calvin's Exegesis.

Rational? Yes! Historically consistent with the beliefs and practices of this religion? No!

Such has always given me a reason to exercise a great deal of humility in my profession and over-confidence in the works of mere men.

Baptist Theology is by it's own profession of personal liberty and individual salvation a spiritual relationship between God and man and not one of merely 'intellectual exercise of an exegesis'. The Bible is surely 'the' Vehicle for our relationship but not necessarily one of the intellect only but of the spirit. Calvinism appears to have forgotten this.

Regardless Peace and God Bless.