Calvinism, The fruit of scriptural truth pt3.

[Scott Downey]

Mark 4
The Purpose of Parables
10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’ ”

Clearly parables are not helping the unbelieving to believe, that is not their purpose.

 

[Scott Downey]

And for confirmation again, so that seeing they may not see and hearing they may not understand.
The intention is not to have them see or understand the meaning. Christ privately explains the meaning.
But in public taught in parables.
Christ taught the disciples not using parables alone, when they asked, He told them, explained to them the understanding, because they had been chosen to know and comprehend the meaning.

Luke 8:9-14
New King James Version

The Purpose of Parables
9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”

10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that

‘Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.’

The Parable of the Sower Explained
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

 

[Scott Downey]

Parables hide the truth of the message, while still having people hear the word of God, and that is how Christ spoke to the people on the outside of their group.
To them on the outside they did not have a clue what he was talking about. But they were able to hear it, but not comprehend what the parable meant. and that was the intent.
Mark 4:32-34
New King James Version
32 but when it is sown, it grows up and becomes greater than all herbs, and shoots out large branches, so that the birds of the air may nest under its shade.”

Jesus’ Use of Parables
33 And with many such parables He spoke the word to them as they were able to hear it. 34 But without a parable He did not speak to them. And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.

Further Example of another parable
John 10
10 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

 

[Scott Downey]

Parables not explained, might as well be in a strange tongue, none of those on the outside understood what he was saying or teaching in the parable.
Yes HE did utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world, but none of it was understood, the meaning to those on the outside remained a mystery. ALL parables had to be explained, and He only did that for those on the inside, not those on the outside.

Mark 4:12

so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’ ”

Matthew 13:34-36
New King James Version

Prophecy and the Parables
34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:

“I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

The Parable of the Tares Explained
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

 

[Dave G]

Acts 17:16-34

There are many who willingly hear. As a result, some of the willing, believe.

I agree that there are many who willingly hear...
but there are far more that are unwilling to hear.

Question:
Do the Scriptures ever tell us why they do and why they do not?
I hold that they do, and I also see that you have been given some of them by several who have posted in this thread.

I myself have willingly believed on Christ, and His word tells me that it was because it was given to me to do so ( Philippians 1:29 ).
I didn't have anything to do with it.

What is the meaning of perishing and being saved in this context (Corinthians)?

To me, the context of the passage, as well as other passages that refer to these groups, tells me who they are.

The contrast in that verse is between those "perishing" and those "being saved".

I agree, to an extent.
Only the words that I prefer are from another translation that doesn't use the phrase "being saved", but rather the phrase "ARE saved".

When I see the words "them that are perishing", my mind recalls other places that the Lord tells me about "those that perish";
Such as 2 Corinthians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and several others.
When I see the words "are saved", my mind recalls still others that use that phrase and I then understand what it describes.

Two groups within mankind...

The lost and the saved.
The elect and those that are not.
The blessed and the cursed.

Those that are God's children, and those who are not.

 

[Dave G]

Whichever is the case, the process is not yet complete. It could have been said in a way that indicated completion, but Paul didn't write it that way.

Sure he did...right here:

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ). <-------Present tense.

" For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:22-24 ). <----- Again, present tense.

" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." ( Romans 1:16 ) <----- Yet again, present tense.

" Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 ). <------- Present tense.

" who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ). <-------- Past tense...God has saved us.

" For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" ( Romans 8:24 ). <----------- Present tense.

The Lord did indeed inspire Paul to write it that way.

 

[Dave G]

So in this verse at least, the idea of having been saved first, as a precondition to hearing with ears to hear and believing, is not supported.

See my immediately above.

Many of these are cited for apparent meanings which are out of context. It is important to follow the polemics of Jesus from start to finish before citing even a single verse or sentence of His words.

Respectfully, I'm not interested in "polemics";
I care about the words themselves.

Context is EVERTHING when it comes to interpretation.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that God's word needs "interpretation"...
I wasn't aware that it did.

In fact, I am of the position that it needs believing far more than it needs "interpreting".

 

[Dave G]

In John, the context of some dialogs span multiple chapters. It requires careful reading. People should not cite those verses without a full understanding of context.

I understand the context of John 6...
It's about why people come to Christ in belief and why they do not.

In John 8:43-47, it's about why people do not hear God's words and why they do.

Who is it that has ears to hear?

Not everyone.
God's word is very specific about those who have been given to know the mysteries of His kingdom, and those who have not ( Matthew 13:10-11 among others ).

For example, them that are without ( outside of the body of Christ ) do not have that privilege.

 

[Dave G]

The one who studies Jesus multi-chapter dialogs completely because his love for Jesus puts him in fear of misquoting or misrepresenting the one he loves.

And you can rest assured that the last thing on my mind is misrepresenting a single precious word of my Saviour.

Otherwise, we may prove, in the end, to be a workman worthy of being ashamed because he did not study to show himself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Again I agree, sir.

Everyone should constantly be in fear of wrongly dividing the word of truth.

Amen.

I take it very seriously and I am in fear of wrongly dividing it...
Because if I misunderstand anything of Scripture, I may very well misrepresent His Gospel and His doctrines... and I could even be responsible for carrying away some of His precious children ( for a time ) into believing something other than the truth...

And in the process, reveal myself to be accursed from God;
Which is what false teachers are ( Galatians 1:6-10, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1:3-16, etc. ).

The mist of darkness, the blackness of darkness, eternal wailing and torment, and the confines of the Lake of Fire are reserved for them as well as many others.

That said, I wish you well, @ad finitum.
This will be my final reply to you in this thread.


May God bless you greatly in both your personal life and in your ongoing studies of His word;
And may you find that He really is worth waiting on and for, as He has shown Himself to be for all of His dear children.

 

[ad finitum]

Sure he did...right here:

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ). <-------Present tense.

Interestingly, this verse also says (despite the translation), "perishing" and "being saved".

 

[Brightfame52]

Acts 17:16-34

There are many who willingly hear. As a result, some of the willing, believe.



What is the meaning of perishing and being saved in this context (Corinthians)? The contrast in that verse is between those "perishing" and those "being saved". Whichever is the case, the process is not yet complete. It could have been said in a way that indicated completion, but Paul didn't write it that way. So in this verse at least, the idea of having been saved first, as a precondition to hearing with ears to hear and believing, is not supported.



Many of these are cited for apparent meanings which are out of context. It is important to follow the polemics of Jesus from start to finish before citing even a single verse or sentence of His words. Context is EVERTHING when it comes to interpretation. In John, the context of some dialogs span multiple chapters. It requires careful reading. People should not cite those verses without a full understanding of context.

Who is it that has ears to hear? The one who studies Jesus multi-chapter dialogs completely because his love for Jesus puts him in fear of misquoting or misrepresenting the one he loves. Otherwise, we may prove, in the end, to be a workman worthy of being ashamed because he did not study to show himself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Everyone should constantly be in fear of wrongly dividing the word of truth.

If they willingly hear spiritually, they must have been born anew.

 

[Brightfame52]

Interestingly, this verse also says (despite the translation), "perishing" and "being saved".

If theyre being saved, which is in the passive voice and present tense btw, then they're in a saved state, whereas the perishing one is in a lost state and therefore the preaching is foolishness, hes not hearing it spiritually as the one in the saved state is.

 

[Yeshua1]

If they willingly hear spiritually, they must have been born anew.

Those who have ears to hear shall hear with understanding, as they know His voice!

 

[Brightfame52]

Those who have ears to hear shall hear with understanding, as they know His voice!

That will be them which are born again

 

[ad finitum]

If they willingly hear spiritually, they must have been born anew.

There is a theological tradition that believes that.

 

[ad finitum]

If theyre being saved, which is in the passive voice and present tense btw, then they're in a saved state, whereas the perishing one is in a lost state and therefore the preaching is foolishness, hes not hearing it spiritually as the one in the saved state is.

Hmmm, if someone is "being loosed", are they in a "loosed (i.e. freed) state"?

 

[ad finitum]

Those who have ears to hear shall hear with understanding, as they know His voice!

It is suffices to love what one hears, whether one knows the voice or not.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is suffices to love what one hears, whether one knows the voice or not.

While in the lost state, will fall upon deaf ears though!

 

[JonC]

While in the lost state, will fall upon deaf ears though!

Yet Christ said he came to save the lost, that the righteousness need no saving.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet Christ said he came to save the lost, that the righteousness need no saving.

How many apart from Jesus are righteous though?