1689Dave
Well-Known Member
God is bound by his nature and his word. He does not have a free will. If he does, he can send all in heaven to hell on a whim.
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Calvinism VS Arminianism Comparison Chart by L. Boettner
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You have God is violating His nature because man chooses not to repent. Ridiculous
It is God's nature to love His creation and offer condemned sinners redemption It does not violate Hios will if He has made us with the a free will to love Him or not
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If so, then we share in his glory. = rob him of it.
The creature takes Glory from the creator and Savior,?
you have it that Jeremiah get the praise for being in the pit and being rescued
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Is that all you see, is His love?
Please explain, if God leads with His love, why He rained destruction down on Sodom and Gomorrah...without sending in preachers.
How about the the Flood?
The children of Israel commanded to go in and kill every last man, woman and child in Jericho, except for Rahab and her house?
The children who mocked Elisha as he was going up from Jericho to Beth-el whom Elisha cursed, and a bear tore 42 of them to pieces ( 2 Kings 2:23-25 )?
If He leads with love, why no chance at repentance for those that He simply killed outright?
No, Lodebar.
I'm audacious enough to acknowledge that He saves people according to His own secret purposes, not according to man's will.
Do you question His right to save whom He wills, and to damn whom He wills?
I don't question His abilities, nor His power.
What I question, is the lop-sided balance that people who think that God is only love, arrive at in their thinking..
I also question why people take some passages at face value and others they seem to dismiss out-of-hand...
Like Acts of the Apostles 13:48, John 10:26, Romans 9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and many others.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I'm not stopping Him from doing anything., neither can I.
Quite the contrary, it seems to me that you are trying to say that He has no right to have compassion and mercy on whom He wills ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).
Are you under the misguided impression that mere man can resist God, and thwart His plans?
Please list the Scriptures that declare, in no uncertain terms, that He limits His love to our free will ( making Him subservient to our choices ).
The evidence is repentance.
Otherwise, we turn the evidences into requirements, and man gains eternal life by performing an act or set of actions.
That is works, not grace.
He's not "offering" anything, Lodebar.
He's promising eternal life to those that believe on His Son.
He's also promising eternal punishment to those who do not.
Again, Scripture please.
Where do you see the Lord declaring that He limits His freedom to choose people for salvation, based on man's efforts and will?
On a side note, I've never seen a "non-Calvinist" answer this question without quoting passages that are speaking to God's chosen nation of Israel, and then taking them and applying them to all men.
In other words, out of context ( @InTheLight 's #4, I believe ).
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
It is God's nature to be holy.
Who told you that it was His nature to love, apart from His holiness, righteousness and judgment...that he leads with His love?
Billy Graham?
Adrian Rogers ( "Love Worth Finding" )?
Joel Osteen?
Man's actions lessen God's power?
Who taught you this?
Someone who presents the Lord like "the Force", where His power is lessened when people limit Him in their hearts?
That's not Almighty Jehovah...that's the Ori in "Stargate SG-1".
Lodebar,
You are limiting God to a man-made version of Him ( Romans 1:18-32 ).
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This is the weirdest conversation i have had on BB. The extremism of this position is unbelievable. way past logic and scripture
IF I want to give everybody $1000 and someone refuses the gift, then I didn't really want to give to everybody. matter of fact someone refusing the gift showtime shows I changed my mind about giving to everyone
HUH?
IF I want to give everybody $1000 and someone refuses the gift, then I didn't really want to give to everybody. matter of fact someone refusing the gift showtime shows I changed my mind about giving to everyone
HUH?
It is God's nature to be holy.
Who told you that it was His nature to love, apart from His holiness, righteousness and judgment?
Billy Graham?
Adrian Rogers ( "Love Worth Finding" )?
Man's actions lessen God's power?
Who taught you this?
Someone who presents the Lord like "the Force", where His power is lessened when people limit Him in their hearts?
That's not Jehovah...that's the Ori in "Stargate SG-1".
Lodebar,
You are limiting God to a man-made version of Him ( Romans 1:18-32 ).
I am not limiting God at all, How can you twist to that?
God is Love
1Jo 4:11
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jo 4:12
¶No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jo 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1Jo 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jo 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jo 4:17¶
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jo 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.
it is obvious some laid in the bed on Sunday mornings
He made us, we sinned, we are condemned because of that sin, He chose not to send us to Hell if we would repent. He came as one of us to die for our sins. Some would accept His pardon and some would not. Those that would not would continue to Hell,
He created and saved us because HE LOVES US
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Careful, Dave.
God's will is bound by Himself.
What He reveals, is what He chooses to be bound by.
We know that He is righteous, holy, and just.
We know that He is love, that He is willing to show wrath and to make His power known, etc.
He has a completely free will, which He then makes choices depending upon His promises.
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Wondering why this has not been addressed....
When God converts a sinner and translates him into a state of grace, He frees his will to do spiritually good things. Is this not correct?
I have been told countless times on BB that "free will" means someone is no longer under the natural bondage of the will to do sin. These are classic Calvinists definitions of free will.
Yet you say God, who is grace, and God, who cannot sin, does not have free will. You are saying God is not free to will and free to do that which is spiritually good.
.1689Dave said:
When God converts a sinner and translates him into a state of grace, He frees his will to do spiritually good things. Is this not correct?
I have been told countless times on BB that "free will" means someone is no longer under the natural bondage of the will to do sin. These are classic Calvinists definitions of free will.
Yet you say God, who is grace, and God, who cannot sin, does not have free will. You are saying God is not free to will and free to do that which is spiritually good.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
No.
I'm not sure, as Matthew 19 and Mark 10 do not say how Jesus felt about it.
Twist what?
Limiting His choice of who to save based on our own desires?
To me, that's limiting Him and His choices.
I'm not doing that.
As I see it, you are.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree.
Now, does God's word actually address why some believe and why some do not?
Yes ( John 6:37-40, John 6:44, John 6:64-65, John 10:26-29, Romans 8:29-30, Philippians 1:29, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 1 Corinthians 2:14-16, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).
Again, I agree.
He created believers and saved them because He loves them ( 1 John 4:19 ).
" This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise." ( Isaiah 43:21 ).
" and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory," ( Romans 9:23 )
He doesn't save people who never believe.
Belief is evidence, not a requirement.
One does not believe to be saved, one believes because they are saved.
Please see John 10:26 for the answer to why some do not believe.
Careful, Dave.
God's will is bound by Himself.
What He reveals, is what He chooses to be bound by.
We know that He is righteous, holy, and just.
We know that He is love, that He is willing to show wrath and to make His power known, etc.
1 John 4
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
Hatred REQUIRES FEAR. God is not a Coward.
Like Yoda says..... FEAR leads to ANGER, ANGER leads to HATE.
Your making the mistake of attributing anthropomorphism to God. God is immutable. He does not change.
Numbers 23
19“God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
Malachi 3
. 6“For I, the LORD, do not change;
Exodus 32
14So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
God didn't really change his mind. This is just anthropomorphism a way to explain in human terms.
do the verse again that says God created believes and yet all are condemned already?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." ( Romans 11:32 )? <---- The context here is Israel. Please Romans 11:25.
" He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ( John 3:18 )?
Lodebar,
One verse by itself is not enough to determine something.
But this one states that those who believe are not condemned, while those who do not are already condemned.
The evidence of that condemnation is that they do not believe.
Again, belief does not determine destiny.
Destiny determines belief.
God made vessels of mercy, and they will believe.
God also made vessels of wrath, and they will not believe.
There is no way a condemned person will ever believe on Christ.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Utilyan,
God is not a man that He should fear.
Please stop putting Him in man-made boxes.
Men and angels fear...He does not.
What does Yoda and Star Wars have to do with the Bible?
God can be angry, because His word says He is angry.
He can show wrath, because His word says that He does ( Romans 1:18 ).
He can decide to hate, perfectly and for righteous reasons, because His word says that He does ( Romans 9:13, Psalms 5:5, Psalms 10:3, Psalms 11:5, Psalms 45:7 ).
If you don't believe His words, there really is nothing to talk about.
I agree.
His treatment of men does not change, either.
Abel was His child, and Cain wasn't.
Election was a fact from the very first.
If He says He did, then He did.
God is not a man that He should lie ( Numbers 23:19 ).
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