Calvinism vs. DoG??

[Winman]

As far as I know a corpse can do absolutely NOTHING. And Jesus clarified this that without Him we can do NOTHING.

Why? Because we were dead. Or, a corpse.

The scriptures in no way describe the spiritually dead like a lifeless corpse that can do nothing. Look at the rich man in hell.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This rich man who died is spiritually dead, but it shows he can see, he can speak, he can hear, he can feel thirst and pain, he can communicate with the spiritually alive (Abraham), he repented, and he even worried about his five brothers who were still alive.

Pretty amazing for a corpse.

 

[preacher4truth]

The scriptures in no way describe the spiritually dead like a lifeless corpse that can do nothing. Look at the rich man in hell.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This rich man who died is spiritually dead, but it shows he can see, he can speak, he can hear, he can feel thirst and pain, he can communicate with the spiritually alive (Abraham), he repented, and he even worried about his five brothers who were still alive.

Pretty amazing for a corpse.

Is he on earth responding to the Gospel?

 

[Winman]

Is he on earth responding to the Gospel?

No, Jesus said he died, was buried, and was in hell. He must be spiritually dead, unless you believe saved people go to torment in hell.

And why would being physically alive on earth make any difference at all? Show me even one verse of scripture that says those spiritually dead who are still physically alive are different from those who have physically died are any different besides physical death.

Jesus said the spiritually dead who are physically alive can hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Did Jesus say the living would hear his voice and those that hear shall live? No, and that would be ridiculous and non-sensical anyway.

No, Jesus said the "dead" shall hear his voice, and those that hear "shall" live.

You know, when you deny that the spiritually dead cannot hear God, you are limiting God's power as well. You are saying that God does not have the power to speak to the spiritually dead.

So, I ask you, does God have the power to speak to the spiritually dead? If not, how is he going to resurrect them at the Judgment?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[preacher4truth]

Of course, God can do anything. God speaking to the spiritually dead, and the spiritually deads inability to respond are two entirely different topics, are they not?

Was he responding to the Gospel?

Can we do anything without Him?

I think you should use an example of a person physically alive.

Also, answer my questions as I have yours.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you calling my salvation into question because of your misunderstanding of my position?

My position is: Regeneration precedes and is a necessary precursor to salvation. Regeneration necessarily leads to salvation. Regeneration is not synonymous with Salvation. Therefore, it is not blasphemous at all to hold my position because I am no, nor have I ever, stated that one can have eternal life outside of Christ.

The Archangel

Now your gettin it!

 

[Winman]

Of course, God can do anything. God speaking to the spiritually dead, and the spiritually deads inability to respond are two entirely different topics, are they not?

Was he responding to the Gospel?

Can we do anything without Him?

I think you should use an example of a person physically alive.

Also, answer my questions as I have yours.

That is plain dumb. If they do not have the ability to respond, then why would God speak to them? Is God foolish?

Besides that, I just showed you plain scripture that shows a spiritually dead man communicating with Abraham who is spiritually alive. He could speak, and he could hear. The reason you cannot understand is that you have been falsely taught that the spiritually dead are like a lifeless corpse. You didn't learn that from reading the scriptures, you learned that from uninspired man.

 

[Winman]

I think you should use an example of a person physically alive.

Nicodemus was spiritually dead, because Jesus told him he must be born again. But Nicodemus was not oblivious to the Lord, he said he "knew" that Jesus came from God.

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Pretty perceptive for an unregenerate man don't you think?

And while it is true that Nicodemus did not understand what Jesus meant by saying "born again", Jesus said much more that Nicodemus did understand. And how do we know? Because later it says that Nicodemus became a disciple of Jesus.

John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

Nicodemus came with another disciple, Joseph of Arimathaea and helped bury Jesus. Nicodemus was a believer.

The Philipian jailer was unregenerate, because Paul told him he must believe on Jesus to be saved. If he were already saved, then why would he need to be saved again? And yet he had a desire to seek God and be saved. And after Paul preached to him, he believed.

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Pretty impressive for a corpse.

Was Paul regenerate when the Lord spoke to him on the road to Damascus? No, the Lord said he was kicking against the pricks. He was resisting the Lord.

Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Does a regenerate man ask who the Lord is? I don't think so. Does a regenerate man resist the Lord? I don't think so. Does a regenerate man persecute the Lord? I don't think so.

No, Paul was not saved until Jesus identified himself to Paul. Only then did Paul submit to the Lord and was saved. But he carried on a conversation with Jesus before that. Again, pretty impressive for a corpse.

 

[preacher4truth]

Nicodemus was spiritually dead, because Jesus told him he must be born again. But Nicodemus was not oblivious to the Lord, he said he "knew" that Jesus came from God.

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Pretty perceptive for an unregenerate man don't you think?

And while it is true that Nicodemus did not understand what Jesus meant by saying "born again", Jesus said much more that Nicodemus did understand. And how do we know? Because later it says that Nicodemus became a disciple of Jesus.

John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

Nicodemus came with another disciple, Joseph of Arimathaea and helped bury Jesus. Nicodemus was a believer.

Sounds to me like the Holy Spirit was working on his dead corpse.

Saying that we are an dead corpse, spiritually, doesn't mean we cannot hear God. Was Adam dead when he heard God? Perhaps the mere fact of God speaking to him gave him the ability to speak back and face himself?

I'll leave the word "dumb" out. Perhaps you should be Christ-like, and do the same. It's unbecoming of believers.

I haven't labeled one thing you have said as being dumb.

I had other questions:

Can we do anything without him?

Was he responding to the Gospel?

 

[quantumfaith]

You keep posting all these verses and it has been pointed out to you on occasions too numerous to count that you are not using them correctly. Besides, a word or a verse is not the major unit of meaning the Bible. No, for that we have to look at the paragraph.

As far as regeneration, which I define a "being made alive," because Ephesians seems to define it that way, being different than salvation...just look at Ephesians 2:4-10:

[4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— [6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:4-10 ESV)
​

The underlined words are the verbs in this passage. They are progressive--a making alive; a raising up. a seating. All of these happen "with" Christ, so it is His work, and this happens to us while we were dead in our trespasses and sins.

So, a "verse" will not do. The entire thrust of Ephesians 2:1-10 shows the reformed position.

The Archangel

Help me understand this

 

[annsni]

The scriptures in no way describe the spiritually dead like a lifeless corpse that can do nothing. Look at the rich man in hell.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This rich man who died is spiritually dead, but it shows he can see, he can speak, he can hear, he can feel thirst and pain, he can communicate with the spiritually alive (Abraham), he repented, and he even worried about his five brothers who were still alive.

Pretty amazing for a corpse.

First off, do we know for sure this was a real occurrance?

Secondly, it's hard to compare the afterlife to life here on earth. I think things change quite a bit afterwards. Of course when one dies they know the facts first-hand.

 

[Robert Snow]

...and what book of the Bible do we find Shakespeare in?

It's amazing how desperate these people get when confronted with good, solid Bible teaching AND common sense the good Lord gave us while not redefining simple terms

Nobody in their right mind would ever take "dead as a door nail" literally to mean the door nail was actually dead. You can't be serious...

I have been taught that death is separation. Of course this throws a monkey wrench into Calvinism, so I imagine many here will disagree with this definition.

 

[annsni]

I have been taught that death is separation. Of course this throws a monkey wrench into Calvinism, so I imagine many here will disagree with this definition.

How would it throw a monkey wrench into Calvinism?

 

[Winman]

Sounds to me like the Holy Spirit was working on his dead corpse.

Saying that we are an dead corpse, spiritually, doesn't mean we cannot hear God. Was Adam dead when he heard God? Perhaps the mere fact of God speaking to him gave him the ability to speak back and face himself?

I'll leave the word "dumb" out. Perhaps you should be Christ-like, and do the same. It's unbecoming of believers.

I haven't labeled one thing you have said as being dumb.

I had other questions:

Can we do anything without him?

Was he responding to the Gospel?

Yes, the Holy Spirit was speaking to his dead corprse, and his dead corpse could hear the Holy Spirit.

And you are changing your tune. Implying that the spiritually dead are like a corpse is to imply that they can perform no function whatsoever. Can a dead corpse hear? Can it speak? Can it understand?

This is the whole problem, spiritual death is a judgment, it is a condemnation. It is like being a convicted felon. Jesus said those who believe not are condemned already. This is legal language, not speaking of the physical.

Rom 5:Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Spiritual death means to be condemned, not lifeless like a corpse. It is a legal judgment. The spiritually dead will stand before God, can a corpse stand?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Can a lifeless corpse stand before God? Can you judge a lifeless corpse? What good does it do to throw a lifeless corpse into the lake of fire anyway, how could that hurt them?

No, spiritual death is very different from physical death.

 

[preacher4truth]

Rom 5:Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Spiritual death means to be condemned, not lifeless like a corpse. It is a legal judgment. The spiritually dead will stand before God, can a corpse stand?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Can a lifeless corpse stand before God? Can you judge a lifeless corpse? What good does it do to throw a lifeless corpse into the lake of fire anyway, how could that hurt them?

No, spiritual death is very different from physical death.

All of us will live forever. Either in hell, spiritually dead, for all eternity, or in heaven, spiritually made alive for all eternity.

Why do you avoid my questions? I know all of these are hard questions, but I ask to learn.

And why call my thoughts dumb? Do you always avoid your own self like this and not respond to your being guilty of insults? Why behave like this? If you possess truth, and I am wrong, why do you behave this way?

I think this is unfortunate polemics.

I am here to learn. I can accept your ideas without name calling. Try doing the same? Who knows, we could learn from one another on all of this.

 

[Winman]

Can we do anything without him?

I forgot to answer this one. My answer is no, we cannot do anything without God first revealing himself to us. Now, once he is revealed we can respond.
Jesus is compared to light. The scriptures say all men were in darkness. Men can see only if light is present. I can see, but if I am in a totally dark room I am blind. But turn on the light and I am enabled to see. And this is how the scriptures compare God's revelation to us. And God uses his Word to communicate to us, this is the light.

Luke 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Psa 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

If it were not for God's word the scriptures, we would all be in the dark and have no way whatsoever to know anything of the true God.

So, man is completely unable to know or understand anything about God unless God had revealed it to us with his Holy scriptures.

And, if God did not reveal himself to us by his word, then we would all have an excuse and cloke for our sin.

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Jesus IS the Word of God. All of the words of scripture are Jesus's words. If God had not revealed himself to us by his Word, we could not possibly know of him. But also, we would have an excuse.

 

[Winman]

And why call my thoughts dumb? Do you always avoid your own self like this and not respond to your being guilty of insults? Why behave like this? If you possess truth, and I am wrong, why do you behave this way?

Well, sometimes you Calvinists say the most illogical and ridiculous things. You said of course God could speak to unregenerate man, but that does not mean unregenerate man can respond.

Well, that is foolish. Why would God waste his time speaking to someone who could not possibly respond? That would be like you or me going out and speaking to a brick wall. We can do it, but I sure hope none of my neighbors see me.

And there is such a thing as offending a person's intelligence. Some of these foolish arguments are offending, you Calvinists must believe us non-Cals are idiots.

I'm sorry if that offends you, but it truly is a foolish argument. God is not foolish. If God knows unregenerate man cannot possibly hear him and respond, it is nonsensical to speak to him. And God is no fool.

I have to get off the computer, but I will be back tomorrow or next day. I will be glad to answer any questions you have.

 

[The Archangel]

Ephesians 2:1 does not support Calvinim, it refutes it. It says we "were dead" in trespasses and sins. It is our trespasses and sins that causes us to be spiritually dead. And the scriptures clearly teach until you first believe you are dead in trespasses and sins.

Not so. There is no causative force with "you were dead." The dative of means "in your trespasses and sins" does not show that death is caused by trespasses and sins. Why? The dative of means is, by definition, impersonal. The agent, here, is "you"--the people to whom Paul is addressing--and that agent uses "trespasses and sins." But, there is no indication that the agent uses trespasses and sins to commit spiritual suicide.

When one considers Paul's typical and consistent use of "walk" as talking about the manner in which one lives and when you consider that he goes on to say we are by nature children of wrath, it is clear that we as dead agents use trespasses and sins in our dead state, the trespasses and sins do not make us dead. Trespasses and sins (the state of, from Paul's use of "walked") are "Fruits" of our death, not causes of it.

Now go back to Ephesians 2:1, it says we WERE DEAD in trespass and sins. Well, what happened to relieve us of this death that was caused by our trespasses and sins?

You know the answer. It is obvious they believed on Jesus. This is why they are no longer dead in sins.

So, as you see, Ephesians 2:1 actually refutes Calvinism.

The problem here is that you look to other passages for an answer. What happened to relieve us of our death? God acted: God made us alive, raised us up, and seated us...all with Christ.

Stick with Ephesians for your answer to a question about Ephesians. That's simple hermeneutics.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Help me understand this

Gladly. Please ask any questions you have (and perhaps start a new thread).

The Archangel

 

[preacher4truth]

Well, sometimes you Calvinists say the most illogical and ridiculous things. You said of course God could speak to unregenerate man, but that does not mean unregenerate man can respond.

Well, that is foolish. Why would God waste his time speaking to someone who could not possibly respond? That would be like you or me going out and speaking to a brick wall. We can do it, but I sure hope none of my neighbors see me.

And there is such a thing as offending a person's intelligence. Some of these foolish arguments are offending, you Calvinists must believe us non-Cals are idiots.

I'm sorry if that offends you, but it truly is a foolish argument. God is not foolish. If God knows unregenerate man cannot possibly hear him and respond, it is nonsensical to speak to him. And God is no fool.

I have to get off the computer, but I will be back tomorrow or next day. I will be glad to answer any questions you have.

I don't think you're an idiot.

God knows unregenerate man can in fact hear him, for Adam heard Him. Yet God did everything in supplying the skins for his coverings, which Adam could not do himself. Adam tried. God rejected it and did all of it Himself. Adam was incapable.

God Himself did it all for Adam. Adam could not do it himself. We can do nothing without God. Jesus our Lord reminded us of this fact.

Not one thing can we do without Him.

Nothing. Not one thing.

Yet you argue that you can.

 

[Rippon]

If it were not for God's word the scriptures, we would all be in the dark and have no way whatsoever to know anything of the true God.

So, man is completely unable to know or understand anything about God unless God had revealed it to us with his Holy scriptures.

And, if God did not reveal himself to us by his word, then we would all have an excuse and cloke for our sin.

If God had not revealed himself to us by his Word, we could not possibly know of him. But also, we would have an excuse.

You're wrong. "From the creation of the world His invisible attributes,that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse." (Ro.1:20 HCSB)