oh then, I will have to have you over when I retire.... Just another Yankee moving in.....do you play golf? you will find me as an aged towel boy by day & a Caddie in the evenings....need a beer, a towel, some Panama Jack Sir (it's a living)
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Calvinism vs. DoG??
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oh then, I will have to have you over when I retire.... Just another Yankee moving in.....do you play golf? you will find me as an aged towel boy by day & a Caddie in the evenings....need a beer, a towel, some Panama Jack Sir (it's a living)
quantumfaith
Active Member
I do play golf, but I really know how to stink it up, but I do enjoy it so. Usually shoot in the 90's, Once shot an 87. woo hoos
Would love to meet and greet with you, if a Math Conference ever brings me to to Central Florida perhaps we can meet for a cold one.
Math Conference....Wow, sounds like a blast (you guys will have to loose the pocket protectors out on the beach though).... And your on & I will be the bald old guy with a deep tan handing out towels...Ha, Ha, Ha
Death means the absence of life or absence of movement. You say nobody uses the term dead to refer to an inanimate object. I disagree. I'm an engineer and we refer to a load which does not move as a dead load and one which does move as a live load. An air conditioner sitting on top of a building is a dead load. It has no movement, no life so to speak. Wind on a building is a live load, it moves, it has life. It will be applied at one time but not at another. When we use dead in this sense we not imply that there was once life or movement.
People speak of a dead weight. A sack of potatoes is a dead weight. We don't imply the sack once had the ability to move on its own by using the term dead.
Dead doesn't necessarily imply something was once alive.
God breathed into the nostrils of Adam the breath of life and man became a living soul. Before this what was Adam? He was dead. He hadn't previously been alive. Your definition of the term dead doesn't work.
I'm sorry, but I gave you the medical dictionary of what "dead" means since you are comparing spiritual death to physical death...and you still deny it's meaning. I have yet to read where it's mainly defined as "absence of movement". It's a riot to say my (even though it is not mine) definition of dead doesn't work :laugh:
Your usage in your line of work is not a literal usage of the phrase as defined to living beings, but "slang" so to speak. Even the phrase "dead weight" is used in that same way as it refers to how heavy it is to lift or carry a dead human that cannot assist you in the lift.
Shakespeare said, "Dead as nail in door." Today we have modernized that to "Dead as a door nail." Nobody in their right mind would suggest a door nail (knocker plate) was EVER alive! LOL!
It is amazing how desperate these people get when confronted with good, solid bible teaching!
...and what book of the Bible do we find Shakespeare in?Shakespeare said, "Dead as nail in door." Today we have modernized that to "Dead as a door nail." Nobody in their right mind would suggest a door nail (knocker plate) was EVER alive! LOL!
It is amazing how desperate these people get when confronted with good, solid bible teaching!
It's amazing how desperate these people get when confronted with good, solid Bible teaching AND common sense the good Lord gave us while not redefining simple terms
Nobody in their right mind would ever take "dead as a door nail" literally to mean the door nail was actually dead. You can't be serious...
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, a medical dictionary is not an authority when it comes to the Bible. The Greek for "dead" is νεκρός and in Ephesians 2 it is used metaphorically. However, the usage does not change the meaning to something less than dead. The word νεκρός does not have a wide range of meaning...it means "dead, corpse, a class of people;" it can mean "useless," but usually only when directly coupled to a noun (like "dead" works).
However, in the case of the Ephesians 2:1 passage it is a dative of means, telling us that death (and that is the meaning) was the state of the Ephesian believers before they came to Christ and that death was because of walking in trespasses and sins and being sons of disobedience. This state (dead) has its root-cause in our nature--we are by nature children of wrath.
So, dead here means dead.
The Archangel
However, in the case of the Ephesians 2:1 passage it is a dative of means, telling us that death (and that is the meaning) was the state of the Ephesian believers before they came to Christ and that death was because of walking in trespasses and sins and being sons of disobedience. This state (dead) has its root-cause in our nature--we are by nature children of wrath.
So, dead here means dead.
The Archangel
Ephesians 2:1 does not support Calvinism. You have said yourself we were dead in trespass in sins. You are absolutely correct.
Can you be regenerated while you are dead in trespass and sins? No.
What do you have to first do to be forgiven of your sins? Believe. Until you believe you are "condemned already".
Therefore faith must precede regeneration.
Even if you say regeneration and faith happen at the same moment, faith must come first, because until you believe you are still in sin. And you cannot possibly be spiritually alive while you are still in sin. So, faith must come first, and when your sins are forgiven then you are spiritually alive.
The problem is that you are confusing spiritual death with physical death. Spiritual death is a judgment. Jesus said those who have not believed are "condemned already". This is a legal term, not a term describing the physical.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Until you believe you are condemned, therefore you cannot possibly have spiritual life (regeneration) until AFTER you have believed.
There are so many scriptures that support this I don't know how Calvinists can ignore it.
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
For the umpteenth-millionth time! Regeneration and salvation are not synonymous!
Regeneration is what leads to belief.
If you are going to continue saying "you believe _______" and so on, at least state correctly what I (or we) believe.
The Archangel
Correct, but the word is found in the Bible, and RAdam is defining the spiritual in a physical way. That being the case, we need to understand what physical death is. It is the ceasing of life. That's not debatable.
The usage in Ephesians 2 is NOT in the physical sense. That is what I meant by you cannot compare the physical with the spiritual. The meaning here is separation, the state of being dead. Dead (spiritual) does not mean dead (physical). To be consistent, is physical life the same as spiritual life?
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Absolutely they are synonymous! Can you have one without the other? No. Can you have spiritual life and not be saved? No. Can you be saved without having eternal life? NO.
The notion you can have eternal life and not be in Christ is blasphemous.
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You have not one word in all the scriptures to support that regeneration is different than salvation. If so, I would love to see it.
I understand what you mean by regeneration. You mean that the unregenerate is made spiritually alive and is "enabled" to seek God, hear and understand God, and believe God's words.
I get it, but it is pure error.
You cannot not be ALIVE until after you believe. There are so many verses on this it is incredible that you can be oblivious to it.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
How can an unbeliever have God's grace, Jesus said until you believe God's WRATH abides on you?
Jesus did not say he that hath life believes, he said he that believeth on the Son hath life NOW. And he said he that believeth not shall not see life.
Over and over the scriptures say you must first BELIEVE to have life.
You teach the exact opposite, you insist a person must have life to have the ability to believe. You have not one word of scripture to support this.
Read John 3:18 again. Jesus says precisely why some are "condemned already". What does he say?
"because he hath not believed"
You Calvinists try to muddle everything. You use all sorts of fancy theological terms and speak of all sorts of theories. Jesus spoke in plain down to earth language anyone could understandl. And Jesus said until you believe you are condemned, and until you believe you shall not see life.
So, it is impossible to have any sort of spiritual LIFE until you believe. There is no such thing as half alive. You are either alive, or you are dead, there is nothing inbetween.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Who has passed from death to life? "He that heareth my word, and believeth". So, until you believe you are DEAD.
Again, there is not one verse in all of scripture to support that any man can have any sort of spiritual life until he FIRST believes.
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Are you calling my salvation into question because of your misunderstanding of my position?
My position is: Regeneration precedes and is a necessary precursor to salvation. Regeneration necessarily leads to salvation. Regeneration is not synonymous with Salvation. Therefore, it is not blasphemous at all to hold my position because I am no, nor have I ever, stated that one can have eternal life outside of Christ.
The Archangel
You are exactly correct Webdog. This is the very reason I argue so much against Calvinism. They teach a person can have spiritual life before they trust on Jesus and are in him. Even if a person believes on Jesus a millionth of a second after they are regenerated, for that one millionth of a second they would have spiritual life outside Christ. This is serious error.
Even if faith and regeneration happen at the same moment (which I believe they do), faith must be said to come first, because until you believe you are condemned and dead in trespass and sins.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
You keep posting all these verses and it has been pointed out to you on occasions too numerous to count that you are not using them correctly. Besides, a word or a verse is not the major unit of meaning the Bible. No, for that we have to look at the paragraph.
As far as regeneration, which I define a "being made alive," because Ephesians seems to define it that way, being different than salvation...just look at Ephesians 2:4-10:
[4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— [6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:4-10 ESV)
The underlined words are the verbs in this passage. They are progressive--a making alive; a raising up. a seating. All of these happen "with" Christ, so it is His work, and this happens to us while we were dead in our trespasses and sins.
So, a "verse" will not do. The entire thrust of Ephesians 2:1-10 shows the reformed position.
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
You apparently don't listen: Regeneration is not spiritual life. But, even if it were defined purely as "spiritual life," according to Ephesians 2:4-10 that spiritual life happens together with Christ.
So may very well be wrong on two counts.
The Archangel
preacher4truth
Active Member
Webdog you replied to me once, I cannot recall what exactly was said, but I do recall your reply, and the reply was "so you're saying we're a corpse"?
Ironically that is what the term dead means when referring to us as being dead in trespasses, Ephesians 2:1.
So yes. A corpse is the correct answer. Nekros; a corpse, dead.
:smilewinkgrin:
As far as I know a corpse can do absolutely NOTHING. And Jesus clarified this that without Him we can do NOTHING.
Why? Because we were dead. Or, a corpse.
:wavey:
I'd be leary of depending upon dictionaries and secular terms to explain spiritual matters, in the same manner you ridiculed one here for using an illustration of a door nail to express truth. It's the same thing that you're doing.
We were unable to respond to God unless He gave us life.
Without Him we are a corpse, and without Him we can do nothing. Jesus did it all.
:thumbsup:
Ironically that is what the term dead means when referring to us as being dead in trespasses, Ephesians 2:1.
So yes. A corpse is the correct answer. Nekros; a corpse, dead.
:smilewinkgrin:
As far as I know a corpse can do absolutely NOTHING. And Jesus clarified this that without Him we can do NOTHING.
Why? Because we were dead. Or, a corpse.
:wavey:
I'd be leary of depending upon dictionaries and secular terms to explain spiritual matters, in the same manner you ridiculed one here for using an illustration of a door nail to express truth. It's the same thing that you're doing.
We were unable to respond to God unless He gave us life.
Without Him we are a corpse, and without Him we can do nothing. Jesus did it all.
:thumbsup:
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
You seem to be hung up on this. Death, being a noun, is a person, place, thing, or idea. Even in Greek a noun is a noun. However, the use in the Ephesians passage is not a noun, it is an adjective and it is used metaphorically. Therefore what it does is this: It takes a common physical understanding (death...dead...being a corps) and applies it to a spiritual state. As a result, the meaning is crystal clear. Dead here means spiritually dead (as is especially clear in the remainder of the passage).
This is very common, even in English.
The Archangel
Ephesians 2:1 does not support Calvinim, it refutes it. It says we "were dead" in trespasses and sins. It is our trespasses and sins that causes us to be spiritually dead. And the scriptures clearly teach until you first believe you are dead in trespasses and sins.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Jesus said if you do not believe on him, ye shall die in your sins.
So, what is the remedy for our sins? Believeing on Jesus.
Now go back to Ephesians 2:1, it says we WERE DEAD in trespass and sins. Well, what happened to relieve us of this death that was caused by our trespasses and sins?
You know the answer. It is obvious they believed on Jesus. This is why they are no longer dead in sins.
So, as you see, Ephesians 2:1 actually refutes Calvinism.
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