It violates all rules of logic. If I give my son a gift and not my daughter simply by my choosing to, it cannot be said he played no role in the process...but my daughter somehow did.
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Calvinism vs. DoG??
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Q, I try not to get in between those two when they start....kinda like getting in between my bulldogs when they commence to fightin. Somebody bound to get hurt....namely me.
quantumfaith
Active Member
, now you have to admit, I am being completely gentle, cordial and respectful of all. I learned my lesson, hope it holds.
Here’s a question for you quantum—if its that “simple” why do denominations exist? Why do various theological viewpoints exist? Why does the Bible lead to as much debate among Christians as it does to group harmony? The fact is—various hermeneutical interpretations, original language, historical context, & systematic Scripture (to name but a few things) need to be considered before making such statements as--”well its what the Bible says—so its what it means”. Are there times when it is simple—sure—but it surly is not a study that should be looked at as simplistic—when taken as a whole. Can the Bible be studied by laymen, those who aren’t so called “scholars”, or the “uneducated”—sure it can__ but if your dedicating yourself to understanding the original language, historical context, Scripture systematically, & considering why opposing viewpoints say what they say—your really not uneducated are you & you really fulfill what it means to study to be approved. Not saying someone needs to go to grad school to be an avid student of the Bible—but I am saying they need to consider the complexity of the theological topics of the free will of man (or human responsibility), God’s sovereignty, election, predestination, foreknowledge, what Scriptures Calvinist use to support their doctrines, what Scriptures do Arminians use to support their doctrines, & why soteriology as whole is so hotly debated---before over simplifying the conversation.
While I lean toward the DOG's I am not fully there and I resent in when someone tells me that I "just don't get it" or calls me a "universalist" or the very insulting "self-salvationist." And, one wonders why there is some resentment? It would be like me saying that Calvinist's, do not pray for the lost to be saved, or do not believe in personal evangelism because the supposed "logical" conclusion is that the elect really don't need anyone to preach the gospel to them. They will come to Christ no matter. It's a ludicrous proposition and a direct violation of The Great Commission. Most Calvinist here would get up in arms at anyone who would suggest that they are non-evangelistic.
There are two verses which come immediately to mind. "Study to show thyself approved unto God" and "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."
There is no "authoritative magisterium" in genuine Christianity but we are, nevertheless, required to study. SimpleMan's insistence that man is not spiritually dead prior to salvation in spite of Paul's statement that he, in fact, is dead, makes us wonder how studied SimpleMan really is, which was the basis for Gabriel Elijah's question.
See what happens when we lay aside the labels and actually discuss the issue.
And do you think it's easy for me....a type A to be gentle Ha Ha Ha
If your not I will have you meet with Bo my Primary 100 LB., BD & he's always hungry....Its not pretty but he's my aggression outlet. In fact after that Giants / Philly game, I'd like to offer Bo to Michael Vick.
(BO & I are Giants fans & we havent had a good day today)
Sag....as I said before, I was there also & I did resent people when they called me Arminian . Plus I was a Presbyterian at the time & got into a most contentious fight with an Elder who I learned later had a Hyper Calvinist movement going in the church I belonged to. But I continued to study & have discussion with other Reformed (Baptist) types & was finally able to solidify things. You will find your answers if you search for them. Either way you are a believer so cool already. :thumbs:
There are two verses which come immediately to mind. "Study to show thyself approved unto God" and "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."
There is no "authoritative magisterium" in genuine Christianity but we are, nevertheless, required to study. SimpleMan's insistence that man is not spiritually dead prior to salvation in spite of Paul's statement that he, in fact, is dead, makes us wonder how studied SimpleMan really is, which was the basis for Gabriel Elijah's question.
My thoughts exactly-friend!
quantumfaith
Active Member
You are correct it is....and will continue to be hotly debated, probably nowhere more hotly debated than here on BB. My point is that "joe christian" does not need to have a professionally obtained biblical education in (original languages, hermeneutics et al.) in order to lay hold of the essentials to come to Christ in faith. I dont think you can make that proof from scripture. Pauls charge to Timothy was in regards to a young man called to be a pastor/teacher. Yes we should all strive to want to grow, but grow first of all in our relationship and walk and second in our intellectual knowledge.
I agree with the simplicity of being saved through faith—but the post was not about how one is saved through faith in Christ (or the basic essentials of “Joe Christian” coming to Christ)—but was attempt to refute certain theological ideas by using examples such as Adam & Eve’s freedom to sin & the betrayal of Judas to demonstrate the inaccuracies of specific soteriological theories—when in reality the subject runs much deeper than this & (the original post) really did nothing more than oversimplify a complex subject. If you are going to make points that are not related to the original subject—I would request a little more clarity in your varying off the topic at hand-
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I have read every post in this thread and can't find anywhere where anyone has made such an assertion. Can you point me to the post where any Calvinist has claimed that a person must obtain a biblical education in the original languages, hermeneutics, etc., prior to coming to Christ?
Again, can you point me to a post that makes such a claim?
Yes, we all agree on that. I am really at a loss where you are getting this stuff. It is in the same vein as Brother Ott's refusal to acknowledge that we are not talking about sinless perfection but of the requirement to meet the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3.
quantumfaith
Active Member
OK, gotcha. BTW, I am in full agreement that the example of Adam/Eve demonstrates that God has designed a certain element of "free will" in His creation.
Sure does-demonstrates man’s freedom to rebel against God—something even the most avid hyper-Calvinist would agree with you on-:laugh:.
quantumfaith
Active Member
And with that, we part paths brother.:laugh::godisgood:
Amen—we might not always agree theologically—but I do love your sense of humor & can admit your quick wit makes me laugh. :smilewinkgrin:
quantumfaith
Active Member
"Mercy, Peace and Love in Abundance" and a VERY Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Its just that you two are from Bama....admit it!:love2::love2: :thumbs:
quantumfaith
Active Member
Yeah, but I am a native of Florida.