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Calvinism: What Have We Been Elected To?
- Thread starter atpollard
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Thank you... I care what a brother or sister has to say but all I ask is back up what you say up with scripture... Actually I was thinking more is this line!... No matter what the translation!.. Brother Glen
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
If you are wanting to have a conversation with General Baptists you are going about it the wrong way. This is because your question presumes the particulars very different definition of "elect". Since I see election as corporate and one is not elect until one is saved then it makes this discussion difficult to have with one of your particular persuasion. How ever we have been elected to be holy and blameless before Christ (Ephesians 1:4)
With such error,,,there is no discussion to be had. There is biblical election, and there is your error.
Rockson
Active Member
Or...there's Biblical election but just not the way you're defining it.With such error,,,there is no discussion to be had. There is biblical election, and there is your error.
That is about as valid as a jw saying there is Father,Son,and Spirit. ..but just not like Christian's define it.Or...there's Biblical election but just not the way you're defining it.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I repeat ...
... scripture disagrees with your hypothesis.
Rockson
Active Member
I won't claim that same about you the other way for I won't go down in a ditch to almost insinuate Calvinists aren't Christian. God bless you my friend!
atpollard
Well-Known Member
When sharing the Gospel with someone, do you start with the good news that God loves them, Jesus died for them and they are going to spend an eternity in Heaven if they believe in Jesus, or do you start with the bad news that they have sinned against a holy God and are destined to face divine Justice and Punishment? (This is not an attack, more of a semi-rhetorical question).
I was hoping to engage with other Particular Baptists about the way we present Election and Predestination. Unlike the Gospel where most share the bad news first and then tell of the good news, 'Reformed Theology' is presented as just the good news with no mention of the bad news at all. So we bring on most of the criticism and shock at the injustice of God ourselves. A friend pointed out that we really should begin the conversation by pointing out what it is that God has chosen us for in this life, with heaven being the 'good news' reward at the END of a race run well.
When I shifted my perspective as he had suggested, I was amazed how many scriptures took on new importance.
So while any conversation with General Baptists is always welcome to me (I learned to study the Bible as a former atheist at a Church of God of Anderson Indiana), my goal was to look at Particular Baptist Theology through a less Heaven-centric lens.
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Rockson
Active Member
My Statement
Because they're willfully ignorant by choice. That is once the gospel is presented they can yield to the Spirit of God who brings enlightenment contained in that very message.
atpollard's quotation
[2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
How so?? My statement didn't deny the god of this world has blinded the unbeliever. I said, "That is once the gospel is presented they can yield to the Spirit of God who brings enlightenment contained in that very message." If they don't they're willfully ignorant by choice.
Because they're willfully ignorant by choice. That is once the gospel is presented they can yield to the Spirit of God who brings enlightenment contained in that very message.
atpollard's quotation
[2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
How so?? My statement didn't deny the god of this world has blinded the unbeliever. I said, "That is once the gospel is presented they can yield to the Spirit of God who brings enlightenment contained in that very message." If they don't they're willfully ignorant by choice.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
In plain English ...
[2Co 4:3-4 NLT] 3 If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. 4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
You claim "they're willfully ignorant by choice" but God says Satan has blinded their minds (Satan, not them) and they are UNABLE to understand the Gospel message (unable, not by choice).
This is exactly what Jesus said:
[Luk 8:5, 11-12 NLT] 5 "A farmer went out to plant his seed. As he scattered it across his field, some seed fell on a footpath, where it was stepped on, and the birds ate it. ... 11 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is God's word. 12 The seeds that fell on the footpath represent those who hear the message, only to have the devil come and take it away from their hearts and prevent them from believing and being saved.
Rockson
Active Member
Well Atpollard I take exception with what you're claiming Jesus "exactly" said. Jesus talked about 3 types of bad soil and 1 type of good one. 1)The soil that's the path...2) the soil that's rocky ground...3) the soil with thorns and of course 4) the good soil. The people chose what type of soil they'd be when the word (seed) was planted. Interesting, and I'm glad you brought this up for one verse stands out....Rocky ground people actually received the word and it says they believed for awhile....but eventually they fell away. Doesn't that do away with OSAS? It says THEY BELIEVED but eventually it didn't profit them. They fell away. Now back to your quotation of the devil come and take it away from their hearts and prevent them from believing and being saved. There's still no proof whatsoever that the path people couldn't have chosen to be of a noble and good heart or good soil and I'll add after they've been presented with the good news. It takes as Jesus said one willing to retain the word and persevere. And you didn't quote further down in the rest of the passage.
“No one lights a lamp and hides it in a clay jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, they put it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light. (in other words God isn't holding or hiding his light from anyone) For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open. Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they think they have will be taken from them.”
Luke 8:16
Jesus told ALL here to be what? Careful! Doesn't that tell you ALL can do something about it? Why would he tell you to be careful if it didn't matter anyway? Please give that a lot of thought BUT here's why.... If you listen and chose to preserver the devil CAN'T take anything from you! Dear friend you've got to read things in context.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but here is where I need to bow out of this conversation. There are two areas that I don't debate theology based upon. The first is to extrapolate any theology based exclusively on the need to interpret a parable and the second is to draw any theology exclusively from the need to interpret the visions of Daniel or Revelation.
I was only pointing out that what Paul was clearly teaching had a parallel in one of the Parables of Jesus.
There are many possible conclusions from the entire Parable of the Sower, but no possible concensus to be gained from debating a parable. How large or narrow a context one takes will impact the conclusion about the specific point that Jesus was attempting to make.
We can discuss 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 if you want to explain how I have misunderstood Paul's words, or shake hands and move on with life.
[PS. The classic next move to 'the rocky soil believed for a while' is James 2:19 and James 2:26 ... then we get to debate a dead vs saving faith and Eternal Security (which I don't want to debate in this topic).]
That view is not how the scriptures define it!Or...there's Biblical election but just not the way you're defining it.
A person has to accept they are a sinner that cannot save thermselves before able to accept the good news of jesus and salvation!
ONLY 1 of the 4 groups were actually saved!
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
This is salvation by self-righteousness, and not by grace spent on those who cannot save themselves.
The soil is already determined by God before the seed hits them!
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The good soil is the New Birth.
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