Calvinist Hats On

Do you disagrre that God is indeed Soverreign, or that He is said to Cause ALL things, or that he can chose to elect His own to salvation?

I believe Bible states God IS indeed sovereign, that he DOES elect His own peoples to salvation, but that h ealso has both a determining/direct Will and a permissive/allowing Will!

 

Salvation

I praise God for those elected the prophets of old, the disciples of Jesus Christ, those at Pentecost, Paul, and who ever you find a name for scripture proof. The first fruit

We should praise God for those who God is including to save those who hear the Gospel of their salvation having believed, who wasn’t there from the beginning that were included when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

I trust God and glorify Him by trusting in Him and I will not let men try to put in me a spirit of fear that I am saving myself. I do not have a Spirit of fear and I can do what God is leading me to do without being afraid, that I am doing something wrong. I know who is saving me Jesus Christ I am saved by grace if not I still owe my debt which is death. My faith did not save me, but my faith teaches me through God and His word say’s those who trust in Jesus will not be put to shame that it was what He did on the cross that saved me thus saved by grace through faith not of works, but the work of the cross. It is a shame to put down someone faith that you believe is different from yours that still end up praising and glorifying Jesus.

I for one see my election but was only included when I believed not before, I wasn’t saved apart from Christ. I was a dog begging at the Master table when He included me.

 

Your post makes it obvious that this issue is beyond your ability to understand. You have been continuosly told that no christian, or calvinist believes or teaches God is the author of sin. You keep twisting it.

God has ordained that Sin satan and evil would exist. They exist and are not outside of His control. They exist but he has had them exist yet, without him being the originator of sin in any way.

I have been patient with you. If however you insist on accusing the brethren, of ascribing sin to God, I will have to view you in another light.

Everyone else here sees it the same way. You have some sort of aversion to this truth. because God ordains something to come to pass does not mean he is the cause...here is yet another example;

The killing of christians by the ungodly is evil, yet God speaks here and says that these christians are also going to be killed by evil persons.
it is ordained, and decreed to happen.

This tells us not only that God is aware of their suffering and death,but He will be with them in their death,and they will be greatly rewarded in the eternal state.

Why does God do it this way? He has many reasons that all fit into His one plan. He does not reveal each detail of every circumstance.
Most of us just believe gen 18:25

 

I would disagree that it is meant that God causes all things, ala determinism.

Your view as stated is still congruent with the idea of man having a Libertarian Will.

 

Would you be able to use a word besides 'ordain' to describe your view? If so, what word(s) would they be?

Would you say that God's foreknowledge is how you arrive at the idea that God 'ordaines' everything to happen? (I put 'ordaine' in quotes because it seems that we have a difference in understanding as to what ordain means.) Or, does God's foreknowledge of the future not affect your idea of 'ordain'?

 

caviat being that in my understanding, we are all bound up in a depraived state, born as sinners, so NOT truely free to choose, as what what we want is based upon our 'will" not that of God, , in sense what we want is now restriction by Sin/flesh, freed up once Christ grants us new life in Him!

 

"ordain" "decree" "determine" "predestine" "elect" "choose" "foreknowledge" "predetermine" "sovereign" "control" "inability" "none" "call"

All these terms scare the semi-pelagianism out of the free-willers.

Those who totally trust God in all this? It is comforting.

- Peace

 

Emphasis mine.

Not quite. No excuse for this.

 

Scare

It does not scare anyone in Christ, because it is to them all those words are talking about not those apart from Him.

Trust in the one who is all those words and in Him you will not be disappointed for those words talk about Jesus and points to Him praise Jesus forever.

 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

Whoa, I am one of those "free willers" and they don't frighten me.

 

depraved state... check!
born as sinners... check!
that it is never the case that God grants/enables any many the ability to choose to respond to him in a self denying way - eeeehhhhhh

The calvinist's responsibility is to prove that it is the case such that God has never granted/enabled or grants/enables any man the ability to respond to Him in a self denying way. All that is required of me is to prove it is the case such that God, at least once, has granted a man the ability to respond to Him in a self denying way.

 

Your trying to drive a point.....what is it?

 

I know some Calvinists personally and esteem them highly and believe that their moral character is beyond reproach. There are many areas in which I admire their belief in and dedication to scripture being God's word, etc. I ask the following from the perspective of responses I've received from calvinists as well as from the perspective being expected to believe in Calvinism.

What would you say is the reason that God does not grant/enable any man the ability to respond to Him in a self denying way?

Why would He do such a thing as to require of man that to which he cannot respond and then exact judgement of eternal torment? Is it unreasonable to ask such a question? It seems to me that this is where I hear calvinists offer up non-arguments like 'God's Glory', 'God's Severeignty', 'mystery' and insert a comment of God's graciousness toward "little ol' me", and wonder amazingly at why He 'chose to create me to everlasting life' and ne'er an expression as to why he would create a majority of the world to everlasting torment of which it is impossible for them to avoid... and then strengthen the tenacity of their belief with the threat of ominous danger that they might consider such a thought reasonable. All this, in an effort to assuage their cognitive dissonance that their systematic theology forces upon them.

What is it that one would need to be informed of that would make them be joyous about this scenario? Is the information mysterious and otherwise hid from non-calvists? Is there internal discussion behind closed doors, so to speak, about this scenario or is it just known by all calvinists not to discuss the logical extension of our beliefs? Is the answer, 'just don't extend our beliefs to a logical conclusion and especially don't offer that extension to speculation, even if for the purpose of understanding what the opposing view is.'?

Is there no struggle for the Calvinist in this matter? Has it never kept you from sleep, enjoyment, happiness? Do you not almost go mad at the idea that out of all the children you have that you have no reasonable expectation of confidence that you will see them in heaven?

What would you say is the reason that God does not grant/enable any man the ability to respond to Him in a self denying way? To require of man that to which he cannot respond and then exact judgement of eternal torment?

 

Well , this clarifies what I suspected. You openly accuse brethren of lying.
Sheep do not behave like this.[snip - inflammatory]
I do not think evil speaking is listed among the fruit of the Spirit.
[snip - inflammatory];

Your snide condescending comments, along with your accusations, calling brothers in Christ "children of the devil"...saying i am lying when I answer you 4 times....shows me all I need to know.
What you posted in ignorance I did not mind,several of us tried to help you.
But you are not interested to learn , just to accuse, call names, and question the salvation of brothers in here. You need to repent and get right with God.

 

This is funny, coming from a Calvinists! :laugh:

 

[snipped for rule violations above]

Obviously someome has issue with the words "decree" and "ordain," as I've stated.

Anyhow, the above quote was used to indict me, by benjamin. It has failed and I will explain why to those who listen and can see. He has gone to lengths to incriminate me, (all the while fighting for his own goodness, interesting?) even creating a "trap thread" that I foiled, after answering him soundly with Bible then bowing out wisely.

Why argue when one will not accept the lost state of man as shown in Scriptures? Consider the truth of the matter and where this fallacy comes from. Pharisees also fought for their own goodness and against such a lost state. Right? Think about it. Who else did? Pelagius? So do benjamin and others. They fight for the righteousness and goodness of lost man as also the Pharisees fought for their good in their own lost state. This is not suggesting anyone lost but the Pharisees, but showing that the lost Pharisees fought for their own goodness, as these are doing also now. This philosophy reminds me of the Masonic Lodge. "YAGM." Or, a "good ol' boy" club. Things of this manner. It doesn't remind me of Biblical Christianity at all, instead it reminds me of a creed of some club.

Think about it. Jesus told them (the Pharisees) they were full of dead mens bones. They were whited tombs, full of death: Mat 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness." Their own claims of goodness made them even worse.

These same became very angry at Jesus, how dare He show them they are in total need of Him and need to do as Paul and cast off all their "good" (which wasn't) and find it for what it truly is: dung. The only thing to conclude by these folks on here that they did do "good" and did "seek" is that they feel they have done at least maybe as well as Paul in it. Maybe a little worse? But he shows us what he did with all of this, it was dung, none of it was then "good" he cast all of away as such. Anyhow, they were angry at Jesus for these things and sought to trap Him in His words and pay Him back for all of this, Luke 11:54, by ultimately nailing Him to a tree. Sound familiar Iconoclast, this being angry, this wanting to trap in words? Others who hold to these truths do you also see? These here too are angry about the true indictment upon lost mans state and fight against it in the same manner. Iconoclast, others who agree with Scripture on mans state, this attack is just the same thing in a new era. Rejoice in it brethren, that you are maligned and attacked for your stance.

To What EWF said used against me as a "proof": (benjamin attempting to prove something out of context)

Yet, in context, I never said what EWF said, and we both concluded that.

Just like G.A. Riplinger, quotes are taken out of context by folks like this in their fantastical ramblings. ben here is no different in his miserable misrepresenting of others.

The problem is they just don't like too much the indictment on lost man and his incapable state, and show disdain the Scriptures that show them as such, turning them however they wish and defend their "goodness" and "integrity." I've shown how another group in Scriptures carried the same exact attitude.

This is semi-pelagian thought. This is also the stand the Pharisees took, defending their "goodness."

- Peace