Calvinist Hats On

[quantumfaith]

I agree but would point out that free will addresses the, for lack of a better word, the culpability of God, so, it is also about the "decrees & doctrines".



I am contemplating how you meant to use the word 'power'. I take it you mean in the manner of 'influence' since 'asserting power' seems to very heavy with the idea of causation which would completely render your question of man's free will impossible.

Also, the manner in which you have framed your question seems to make it sound as though we believe that God has never, nor will ever, be the cause of a human's will, or influence that will. I don't understand why you would accept this characature. It is inacurate. I have not read anyone make that claim.

The good thing is that it should be easy for you to recognize the paper tiger you have found. The idea of us conversing on this board indicates that we believe that we can inform and thereby influence another person's will. In fact, if we as Christians have information that might influence unbelievers then we are morally obligated to present such and encouraged to influence them to believe. It is possible that I change my views and decide to do that which I otherwise would not have done. How much more would God be able to inform and inflence man? Yet you propose that we believe God does not nor has ever influenced any man as such?

May I propose a new premise instead of the one you found? Free will is the ability to choose to respond to Him in a self denying way. It is God who informs us (the good news), who draws us (Christ being lifted up), who convicts us of our sin, in faith we deny our selves and turn to Christ.



Your reference here to 'doing whatever you like' doesn't reflect what we believe either. I don't think anyone here on the BB believes that man can cause a certain reality to exist entirely of our own will. If so, then you would be able to rightly accuse them of believing that they could will their keyboard into a block of gold. Of course, we don't have that ability and I think you would agree that that is not what we are claiming (yet your post allows for that). Nor do we believe that man can will himself to a distant extraterrestrial location of blissful existence in the same manner.



It seems that you are :BangHead: bumping up against a logical problem being something like this: How can God create a being with any bit of real free will and still be completely sovereign. How can God hold a created being accountable for something he was not created as able to do.

Can it be the case that God created beings which can choose to deny themselves (at least in one solitary decision) and still maintain His sovereignty? Can it be the case that God can create beings for which God determines and causes everything and still maintain His sovereignty? I think both can be answered in the affirmative. Can God then hold accountable these beings with the consequences being everlasting torment and still maintain His character? In the former scenario, yes. In the latter scenario, I'm not so confident.

Either belief has its problems. I am aware of my belief's problems. I think you would agree that because a belief has logical problems it should not follow that they are therefor disqualified as legitimate candidates for models of reality.

EWF, I would encourage you to read an essay from Dr. Barry Creamer. He is the Professor of Humanities at Criswell College. I have found his podcasts and writings extremely helpful for me to understand the idea of free will. You may also find helpful my story of having to confront the issue of my Pastor being a calvinist. He used my email to start a week long series of shows on KCBI on the subject of Determinism and Freewill. You will also get to learn more about me, which really doesn't mean much other than it seems to help our understanding when we start to emotionally connect to someone's story. Shalom.

Just wanted to say a public Thank you for sharing these links.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A hyper Calvinist has the integrity to embrace the logical consequences of Calvinism, God is the author of sin, but a Mainstream Calvinist denies this and simply repeats the logical impossiblity, God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, but is not the author of sin. This issue has been at the core of dozens of threads with Calvinists avoiding the obvious by discussing the character and qualifications of whoever their opponent may be.
It seems hopeless.

Then Van....how would you categorize the authors of the 1689 Baptist confessions of Faith?

 

[quantumfaith]

Then Van....how would you categorize the authors of the 1689 Baptist confessions of Faith?

Air breathing, mammalian homo sapiens....like the rest of us.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree but would point out that free will addresses the, for lack of a better word, the culpability of God, so, it is also about the "decrees & doctrines".



I am contemplating how you meant to use the word 'power'. I take it you mean in the manner of 'influence' since 'asserting power' seems to very heavy with the idea of causation which would completely render your question of man's free will impossible.

Also, the manner in which you have framed your question seems to make it sound as though we believe that God has never, nor will ever, be the cause of a human's will, or influence that will. I don't understand why you would accept this characature. It is inacurate. I have not read anyone make that claim.

The good thing is that it should be easy for you to recognize the paper tiger you have found. The idea of us conversing on this board indicates that we believe that we can inform and thereby influence another person's will. In fact, if we as Christians have information that might influence unbelievers then we are morally obligated to present such and encouraged to influence them to believe. It is possible that I change my views and decide to do that which I otherwise would not have done. How much more would God be able to inform and inflence man? Yet you propose that we believe God does not nor has ever influenced any man as such?

May I propose a new premise instead of the one you found? Free will is the ability to choose to respond to Him in a self denying way. It is God who informs us (the good news), who draws us (Christ being lifted up), who convicts us of our sin, in faith we deny our selves and turn to Christ.



Your reference here to 'doing whatever you like' doesn't reflect what we believe either. I don't think anyone here on the BB believes that man can cause a certain reality to exist entirely of our own will. If so, then you would be able to rightly accuse them of believing that they could will their keyboard into a block of gold. Of course, we don't have that ability and I think you would agree that that is not what we are claiming (yet your post allows for that). Nor do we believe that man can will himself to a distant extraterrestrial location of blissful existence in the same manner.



It seems that you are :BangHead: bumping up against a logical problem being something like this: How can God create a being with any bit of real free will and still be completely sovereign. How can God hold a created being accountable for something he was not created as able to do.

Can it be the case that God created beings which can choose to deny themselves (at least in one solitary decision) and still maintain His sovereignty? Can it be the case that God can create beings for which God determines and causes everything and still maintain His sovereignty? I think both can be answered in the affirmative. Can God then hold accountable these beings with the consequences being everlasting torment and still maintain His character? In the former scenario, yes. In the latter scenario, I'm not so confident.

Either belief has its problems. I am aware of my belief's problems. I think you would agree that because a belief has logical problems it should not follow that they are therefor disqualified as legitimate candidates for models of reality.

EWF, I would encourage you to read an essay from Dr. Barry Creamer. He is the Professor of Humanities at Criswell College. I have found his podcasts and writings extremely helpful for me to understand the idea of free will. You may also find helpful my story of having to confront the issue of my Pastor being a calvinist. He used my email to start a week long series of shows on KCBI on the subject of Determinism and Freewill. You will also get to learn more about me, which really doesn't mean much other than it seems to help our understanding when we start to emotionally connect to someone's story. Shalom.

Brother, please don't misinterpret what I say as having any interest in your theology....sorry but I am completely convinced that my own theology best represents Salvation By Grace. Im committed to my own soteriology studies. And thats quite a daunting task, IE to study Calvin, Boice, Spurgon, Owen, Whitefield, Edwards, Bunyan, Knox Sproul, etc. But I do appreciate the offer.

Perhaps you can briefly explain how Free Will Theology ever began in the 1st place. Ive read a little about New England & New Haven Theology & how it paved the way for liberalism.

Thanks

 

[webdog]

Brother, please don't misinterpret what I say as having any interest in your theology....sorry but I am completely convinced that my own theology best represents Salvation By Grace. Im committed to my own soteriology studies. And thats quite a daunting task, IE to study Calvin, Boice, Spurgon, Owen, Whitefield, Edwards, Bunyan, Knox Sproul, etc. But I do appreciate the offer.

Perhaps you can briefly explain how Free Will Theology ever began in the 1st place. Ive read a little about New England & New Haven Theology & how it paved the way for liberalism.

Thanks

Curious why you are on a debate forum if you have no interest in considering and debating opposing views?

Are you really asking how "Free Will Theology" began to learn if your mind is not open to considering anything other than what you believe? Why ask?

If you are truly interested, start in Genesis with God telling which trees they could and could not eat from.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Air breathing, mammalian homo sapiens....like the rest of us.

See....Barny Frank (God forbid) would answer for someone else.....Don't do that!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you really asking how "Free Will Theology" began to learn if your mind is not open to considering anything other than what you believe? Why ask?

Hahahaaaaaa OK 1st, my post wasnt directed at you, it was answering Humble's responses & thanking him for his offer. So do me a favor & butt out.

2nd.....I have no interest in being a Free Will Believer & I clearly stated it. I do want to know where the movement began however. No worries, there is always the internet & also my own Calvinistic brothers to ask. Im sure you prospective will be well represented with them....LOL

 

[JesusFan]

...or we understand your faulty understanding and reject it in favor for the biblical perspective :thumbs:

So you would reject BOTH the classical Cal/Arm view on man, as both affirm that we are depraved/dead enough that unless God extends Grace from the Cross to us, NONE could ever get saved?

 

[JesusFan]

Brother's ..... this is getting tiring! We can focus & debate on this all day long..... but this is all you really need to know about Predestination & I pray it all falls into place.

Before the beginning of time, God chose a people and has made it so that they will all eventually be LIKE Jesus Christ and WITH Jesus Christ. Thats the biblical defination of Predestination. (Not so bad)

Now, Predestination teaches us that we are totally dependent on the mercy of God. To deny predestination, is to deny the greatest act of pure mercy ever demonstrated. God did not predestine all things that transpire but He predestined all whom He foreknew.

And here is where people become very confused, and some will insist that God predestines everything we do, even the sin that we commit. No, No, No Not so.....again, Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect. Nothing else!

Think that some people are "freaked" out to hear that GHod just might have a Will and a Plan for man that could be better than one we could make up!

Also, why is it that IF God does predestined His own to salvation, that it is bad/wrong/ not rihght according to us?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Think that some people are "freaked" out to hear that God just might have a Will and a Plan for man that could be better than one we could make up!

Also, why is it that IF God does predestined His own to salvation, that it is bad/wrong/ not right according to us?

JF..... you need a bigger keyboard on your phone....LOL cleaned up your typo's.

You pose some loaded questions, nothing that will get resolved till we are at heavens gate....however I find it comforting that God is in control....I cant imagine that I could run it any better than my own Creator, can you?:love2:

 

[JesusFan]

JF..... you need a bigger keyboard on your phone....LOL cleaned up your typo's.

You pose some loaded questions, nothing that will get resolved till we are at heavens gate....however I find it comforting that God is in control....I cant imagine that I could run it any better than my own Creator, can you?:love2:

maybe can get bigger keys there!
just saying that it would be odd to say that HOWEVER God chose to work out His plans to save people would be "suspect" seems funny thing to do!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Can we possibly kill this thread now...we are at 10 pages???

Thanks

 

[Skandelon]

Too many violations to continue this one.... Sorry, time to close it.