Calvinist Hats On

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So your saying that God predestined everything we do, even the sin that we commit? Sorry then I would agree with our critics that criticize us, suggesting that God make us mindless robots and would make God the author of sin. No, no, no but as you have pointed out, there are some things God “decreed” to happen when they did (as the first and second coming of Jesus) but that is a completely different subject. Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect. So, let me just ask you to review the scriptures that pertain to the doctrine of Predestination (Eph 1:3-6; Eph 1:11-12 & Romans 8:29) and see if the words "we" "us" "whom" and "brethren" dont all answer the question. This is a huge point in understanding Predestination and please do not miss it. God did not predestine all things that transpire. His concern is totally with the destiny of the elect.

And we can continue to debate this forever.... there is a permissive character of God that allows the creature liberty to do his own sinning. I don't know anything more false and blasphemous than to call sin a creature of God, when it is rebellion of the creature against the Creator, the creature's transgression of the law of the Creator. Then take another look at James 1: 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: the Scriptures declare that He does not even tempt.

Lastly, think about this for awhile, "if He were to do the very same things that sinners do, its then OK for Him because He is God?" The very supposition is blasphemy; it is impossible for God to lie, or to deny Himself (Heb. vi.18; 2 Tim. ii.13), to act contrary to His essentially, infinitely, and unchangeably holy nature. It is said in justification of this blasphemy, that He is above all law; but, though a glorious and eternal Sovereign, He is a Most Holy Sovereign who cannot do wrong, and He cannot be above the law or rule of principle of His own perfect nature or character, which is a part of Himself, and is infinite light (or truth and holiness) and love. WOW, this is heady stuff, but to believe this brethren not only stains the holiness, but it also belittles the wisdom and the power of God

 

[preacher4truth]

So your saying that God predestined everything we do, even the sin that we commit?

No. You're saying that.

I am saying that events are also predetermined and predestined, not just people. I gave scriptural reference to back it up. You've turned it into "then He predestined each and every single thing we do" (to paraphrase) not me. My reply was a response to your saying He doesn't predestine events, but He most certainly does.

Sin was allowable in His plan.

All you are doing is putting words in my mouth with the "this makes Him the author of sin" by whatever that means to you in your definition.

I am sorry you come to some conclusion that I've said it is OK for God to do what sinners do. That is unwarranted. I don't believe it. Don't attatch this to me, it's not accurate nor is it in my theology, fair enough?

Sorry here too, but this is not what I've said. If I believed what you've said above I'd come right out and say it.

- Peace

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No. You're saying that.

I am saying that events are also predetermined and predestined, not just people. I gave scriptural reference to back it up. You've turned it into "then He predestined each and every single thing we do" (to paraphrase) not me. My reply was a response to your saying He doesn't predestine events, but He most certainly does.

Sin was allowable in His plan.

All you are doing is putting words in my mouth with the "this makes Him the author of sin" by whatever that means to you in your definition.

I am sorry you come to some conclusion that I've said it is OK for God to do what sinners do. That is unwarranted. I don't believe it. Don't attatch this to me, it's not accurate nor is it in my theology, fair enough?

Sorry here too, but this is not what I've said. If I believed what you've said above I'd come right out and say it.

- Peace

Pardon me then.....but I still dont agree about events being predestined....so there is a point.

 

[preacher4truth]

Pardon me then.....but I still dont agree about events being predestined....so there is a point.

God didn't predetermine the event of His Son Crucified? He kept foreshowing this event in the OT.

The Scriptures say that it was predetermined.

Are prophecies (things to come) predetermined?

How about the Judgment, of the sheep, goats?

The Judgment seat of Christ?

I gave enough Scriptures to share this basic principle to be true.

Also look at this:

http://www.bible-truths-revealed.com/adv61.html

I think the reason you are rejecting this Biblical teaching is you are clinging to some "fatalism" label.

 

[quantumfaith]

No. You're saying that.

I am saying that events are also predetermined and predestined, not just people. I gave scriptural reference to back it up. You've turned it into "then He predestined each and every single thing we do" (to paraphrase) not me. My reply was a response to your saying He doesn't predestine events, but He most certainly does.

Sin was allowable in His plan.

All you are doing is putting words in my mouth with the "this makes Him the author of sin" by whatever that means to you in your definition.

I am sorry you come to some conclusion that I've said it is OK for God to do what sinners do. That is unwarranted. I don't believe it. Don't attatch this to me, it's not accurate nor is it in my theology, fair enough?

Sorry here too, but this is not what I've said. If I believed what you've said above I'd come right out and say it.

- Peace

I do agree with you that indeed SOME events were indeed predestinated. Calvary is not plan B, God was not and is not "surprised" by the fall or the continued sin of mankind. I do not believe that "all things" are "predestinated" by God, but they do occur within the parameters of will that He designed from the beginning. He created the "sample space" of the universe, He knows all possible actions, reactions, every permutation of every atom without decreeing every minute detail. He is sovereign and omniscient. He knows all outcomes even without "forcing" them to be so.

 

[InTheLight]

I do agree with you that indeed SOME events were indeed predestinated. Calvary is not plan B, God was not and is not "surprised" by the fall or the continued sin of mankind. I do not believe that "all things" are "predestinated" by God, but they do occur within the parameters of will that He designed from the beginning. He created the "sample space" of the universe, He knows all possible actions, reactions, every permutation of every atom without decreeing every minute detail. He is sovereign and omniscient. He knows all outcomes even without "forcing" them to be so.

Good post. :thumbs:

 

[JesusFan]

Evil comes to pass, did God decree evil?



Okay, prove/explain how, “If God decreed evil, how is He not the author of it?



again prove/explain where does the Bible speaks of “second causes” and how is “liberty” (“the will of the creature”/creaturely volition/the conscious ability to choose) not taken away within these “second causes”?

I did not ask for you to re-state your…err…the manmade dogm…err…position you parrot. I asked you to defend/rationalize it. Try using your own words supported by scripture to explain how a God of Truth, a God without moral evil, “decrees all things” (evil) “whatsoever comes to pass” (evil) yet is not the author of it (evil)?



Ahh, sounds like double talk to me.* Decreed all things, yet hath not decreed anything? All things whatsoever comes to pass, but not that which would come to pass?

Sounds like the 1689 LBC philosophy you bow to has the same problem you do trying to explain how something can be both true and not true. Are you just going to repeat/parrot the confession and avoid explaining with a measure of truth/logic how *this works?

Don't repeat your dogma, explain it...

See the question marks?

When God created man in His own Image, He granted them the ability to have " free will" as much as can bre allowed for any creation!
They freely chose to sin against God, and after the fall, ALL of us are born into sin and are sinners by nature...

God DID decree that the Cross of Christ and those Elected to Eternal Life would go forth , but Evil/Sin were brought into Creation by 'free moral" agents that chose to go against God!

Do God permitted/allowed for the fall of satan and man, but He did decree for Him to get the glory despite their bad choices, and foe His own to be saved out from a ruined race!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God didn't predetermine the event of His Son Crucified? He kept foreshowing this event in the OT.

The Scriptures say that it was predetermined.

Are prophecies (things to come) predetermined?

How about the Judgment, of the sheep, goats?

The Judgment seat of Christ?

I gave enough Scriptures to share this basic principle to be true.

Also look at this:

http://www.bible-truths-revealed.com/adv61.html

I think the reason you are rejecting this Biblical teaching is you are clinging to some "fatalism" label.

Yes......as you have pointed out, there are some things God “decreed” to happen when they did

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do agree with you that indeed SOME events were indeed predestinated. Calvary is not plan B, God was not and is not "surprised" by the fall or the continued sin of mankind. I do not believe that "all things" are "predestinated" by God, but they do occur within the parameters of will that He designed from the beginning. He created the "sample space" of the universe, He knows all possible actions, reactions, every permutation of every atom without decreeing every minute detail. He is sovereign and omniscient. He knows all outcomes even without "forcing" them to be so.

Im confused about your comment 'He created the "sample space" of the universe' but we agree on everything else.:thumbsup:..... you will find that most Primitive Baptists believe as such.... which is total belief in Sovereign Grace.

 

[Iconoclast]

This figures in,
The Scriptural authority for the doctrine of decrees will appear from the following statements and references, gathered with slight modifications from Hodge's Outlines, pp, 205-213:

1. God's decrees are eternal. Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:4; 3:11; 1 Pet. 1:20; 2 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Cor. 2:7.

2. They are immutable. Ps. 33:11; Isa. 46:9.

3. They comprehend all events.

(1.) The Scriptures assert this of the whole system in general embraced in the divine decrees. Dan. 4:34, 35; Acts 17:26; Eph 1:11.

(2.) They affirm the same of fortuitous events. Prov. 16:33; Matt. 10:29, 30.

(3.) Also of the free actions of men. Eph. 2:10, 11; Phil. 2:13.

(4.) Even the wicked actions of men. Acts 2:23; 4:27, 28; 13:29; 1 Pet. 2:8; Jude 4; Rev. 17:17. As to the history of Joseph, compare Gen. 37:28, with Gen. 45:7, 8, and Gen. 50:20. See also Ps. 17:13, 14; Isa. 10:5, 15.

4. The decrees of God are not conditional. Ps. 33:11; Prov. 19:21; Isa. 14:24, 27 ; 46:10; Rom. 9:11.

5. They are sovereign. Isa. 40:13, 14; Dan. 4:35; Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:11, 15-18; Eph. 1:5, 11.

6. They include the means. Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2.

7. They determine the free actions of men. Acts 4:27, 28 ; Eph. 2:10.

8. God himself works in his people that faith and obedience which are called the conditions of salvation. Eph. 2:8 ; Phil. 2:13; 2 Tim. 2:25.

9. The decree renders the event certain. Matt. 16:21; Luke 18:31-33; 24:46; Acts 2:23; 13:29; 1 Cor. 11:19.

10. While God has decreed the free acts of men, the actors have been none the less responsible. Gen. 50:20; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:27, 28.

 

[Iconoclast]

To say God ordained sin and evil is heresy plain and simple, it doesn't matter that you try to deny what you have just said in the next breath. You only attempt to cover a lie with another lie is all.


Benjamin.... The scripture teaches that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass.
The scripture says;

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

7Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

6Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done [it]?

6Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

These verses are in kjv and ylt.
I believe these verses....do you?
I understand these verses in light of the dozens of clearer verses offered on God's nature, character, and eternal purpose.
If you want to drift off into human philosophy,and speculation no one is stopping you. It is just that we prefer scriptural revelation than worldly wisdom.


No doubt: Philosophy - 1. the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.

This rational investigation of truth did not lead man to know God.
here is what I believe on that;

19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Calvinism is the biblical teaching that humbles man and exalts Christ.

all other flesh pleasing systems exalt man in my view,and try to share some of the glory that belongs to God only.

 

[preacher4truth]

This rational investigation of truth did not lead man to know God.
here is what I believe on that;


Calvinism is the biblical teaching that humbles man and exalts Christ.

all other flesh pleasing systems exalt man in my view,and try to share some of the glory that belongs to God only.

Amen brother. A Pelagius view does the opposite and rejects that man needs Divine assistance in seeking God, which is fallacy. He was also ascetic, a form of self-righteousness. Go figure.

This is mere humanistic religion. It is not Biblical.

 

[Benjamin]

This figures in,
God's decrees are eternal.

They are immutable.

They comprehend all events.

Also of the free actions of men

Even the wicked actions of men

The decrees of God are not conditional

They include the means

They determine the free actions of men

Anyone who attributes sin and evil to God is a liar and a child of the Devil, the truth is not them!

Jesus the Word, Who was with God in the beginning brought us a message: 1John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Jesus, the Word, had a reply for those who attributed sin to Him: John 8:46, Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

He told us who would be saying such lies:

John 8:44, Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

God did not create, decree, ordain sin or evil, it came from the Devil, he was responsible:

Eze 28:14-18
(14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

The Devil is the one who lied in the garden and told men they could be as gods, and the Devil and his helpers attempt to attribute sin and evil onto God today, they say the Word is not Truth. They say we can not seek God.
Amo 5:14
(14) Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.

The Devil brought sin onto the world and Jesus, the Word was manifested for this purpose and those who believe in the Goodness of God are the ones who have the truth.

1Jn 3:8
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This is the message of the Word which God’s sons hear:

1John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

…And this is for the message of the Devil and his liars, who tell lies and attempt to hide it within their words:

Isa 5:20-21
(20) Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
(21) Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

 

[preacher4truth]

Anyone who attributes sin and evil to God is a liar and a child of the Devil, the truth is not them!

Iconoclast was completely Scriptural and Biblical in his rebuttal. Nothing he said is "attributing" sin to God. Nothing anyone has said has.

Simmer down.

Those are nice verses, but caustic conclusions. Yet your theory remains baseless, along with your proof-texting. Why? Because, again, no one is attributing sin to Holy God.

 

[JesusFan]

I do agree with you that indeed SOME events were indeed predestinated. Calvary is not plan B, God was not and is not "surprised" by the fall or the continued sin of mankind. I do not believe that "all things" are "predestinated" by God, but they do occur within the parameters of will that He designed from the beginning. He created the "sample space" of the universe, He knows all possible actions, reactions, every permutation of every atom without decreeing every minute detail. He is sovereign and omniscient. He knows all outcomes even without "forcing" them to be so.

God knows ALL things, and causes SOME things, and ALLOWS other things...

ALL done for His glory, and still retains the Right to intervene at ANY time, as His Will is ultimently absolute!

 

[JesusFan]

Iconoclast was completely Scriptural and Biblical in his rebuttal. Nothing he said is "attributing" sin to God. Nothing anyone has said has.

Simmer down.

Those are nice verses, but caustic conclusions. Yet your theory remains baseless, along with your proof-texting. Why? Because, again, no one is attributing sin to Holy God.

God "permitted" Sin and Death to enter into His creation in order to bring glory to Himself by His Plans to "deal" with it!
Not caused by God, but just as with Joseph, What was planned for Evil, God turns it around for the good...

As God CANNOT tempt nor Himself be tempted as pe Apostle James!

 

[Benjamin]

Those are nice verses, but caustic conclusions. Yet your theory remains baseless, along with your proof-texting. Why? Because, again, no one is attributing sin to Holy God.

Originally Posted by Iconoclast
This figures in,

Even the wicked actions of men

This is the message of the Word which God’s sons hear:

1John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

…And this is for the message of the Devil and his liars, who tell lies and attempt to hide it within their words:

Isa 5:20-21
(20) Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
(21) Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

No reason to repeat myself, if the shoe fits, wear it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ben, have you ever read or studied the 1689 Confessions of Faith

As an FYI;

3. God's Decree

God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass.

- Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature , nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

- In all this God's wisdom is displayed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.

 

[Benjamin]

Ben, have you ever read or studied the 1689 Confessions of Faith

As an FYI;

3. God's Decree

God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass.

- Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature , nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

- In all this God's wisdom is displayed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.

Yep, looked it over many times, even addressed it (the usefulness) in this very tread. Thx

 

[preacher4truth]

No reason to repeat myself, if the shoe fits, wear it.

"Even the wicked actions of men."

(an out of context quote of my brother Iconoclast as benjamin misrepresents it)

Hmm. I wonder what the context of that statement was?

All we get from ben is "Even the wicked actions of men." That's all. Nothing more. Reminds me of how G. A. Riplinger "quotes" others.

Another quote out of context.

That "shoe" is fitting you to perfection.

Congrats.