Calvinist Hats On

So your saying that God predestined everything we do, even the sin that we commit? Sorry then I would agree with our critics that criticize us, suggesting that God make us mindless robots and would make God the author of sin. No, no, no but as you have pointed out, there are some things God “decreed” to happen when they did (as the first and second coming of Jesus) but that is a completely different subject. Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect. So, let me just ask you to review the scriptures that pertain to the doctrine of Predestination (Eph 1:3-6; Eph 1:11-12 & Romans 8:29) and see if the words "we" "us" "whom" and "brethren" dont all answer the question. This is a huge point in understanding Predestination and please do not miss it. God did not predestine all things that transpire. His concern is totally with the destiny of the elect.

And we can continue to debate this forever.... there is a permissive character of God that allows the creature liberty to do his own sinning. I don't know anything more false and blasphemous than to call sin a creature of God, when it is rebellion of the creature against the Creator, the creature's transgression of the law of the Creator. Then take another look at James 1: 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: the Scriptures declare that He does not even tempt.

Lastly, think about this for awhile, "if He were to do the very same things that sinners do, its then OK for Him because He is God?" The very supposition is blasphemy; it is impossible for God to lie, or to deny Himself (Heb. vi.18; 2 Tim. ii.13), to act contrary to His essentially, infinitely, and unchangeably holy nature. It is said in justification of this blasphemy, that He is above all law; but, though a glorious and eternal Sovereign, He is a Most Holy Sovereign who cannot do wrong, and He cannot be above the law or rule of principle of His own perfect nature or character, which is a part of Himself, and is infinite light (or truth and holiness) and love. WOW, this is heady stuff, but to believe this brethren not only stains the holiness, but it also belittles the wisdom and the power of God

 

No. You're saying that.

I am saying that events are also predetermined and predestined, not just people. I gave scriptural reference to back it up. You've turned it into "then He predestined each and every single thing we do" (to paraphrase) not me. My reply was a response to your saying He doesn't predestine events, but He most certainly does.

Sin was allowable in His plan.

All you are doing is putting words in my mouth with the "this makes Him the author of sin" by whatever that means to you in your definition.

I am sorry you come to some conclusion that I've said it is OK for God to do what sinners do. That is unwarranted. I don't believe it. Don't attatch this to me, it's not accurate nor is it in my theology, fair enough?

Sorry here too, but this is not what I've said. If I believed what you've said above I'd come right out and say it.

- Peace

 

Pardon me then.....but I still dont agree about events being predestined....so there is a point.

 

God didn't predetermine the event of His Son Crucified? He kept foreshowing this event in the OT.

The Scriptures say that it was predetermined.

Are prophecies (things to come) predetermined?

How about the Judgment, of the sheep, goats?

The Judgment seat of Christ?

I gave enough Scriptures to share this basic principle to be true.

Also look at this:

http://www.bible-truths-revealed.com/adv61.html

I think the reason you are rejecting this Biblical teaching is you are clinging to some "fatalism" label.

 

I do agree with you that indeed SOME events were indeed predestinated. Calvary is not plan B, God was not and is not "surprised" by the fall or the continued sin of mankind. I do not believe that "all things" are "predestinated" by God, but they do occur within the parameters of will that He designed from the beginning. He created the "sample space" of the universe, He knows all possible actions, reactions, every permutation of every atom without decreeing every minute detail. He is sovereign and omniscient. He knows all outcomes even without "forcing" them to be so.

 

Good post. :thumbs:

 

When God created man in His own Image, He granted them the ability to have " free will" as much as can bre allowed for any creation!
They freely chose to sin against God, and after the fall, ALL of us are born into sin and are sinners by nature...

God DID decree that the Cross of Christ and those Elected to Eternal Life would go forth , but Evil/Sin were brought into Creation by 'free moral" agents that chose to go against God!

Do God permitted/allowed for the fall of satan and man, but He did decree for Him to get the glory despite their bad choices, and foe His own to be saved out from a ruined race!

 

Yes......as you have pointed out, there are some things God “decreed” to happen when they did

 

Im confused about your comment 'He created the "sample space" of the universe' but we agree on everything else.:thumbsup:..... you will find that most Primitive Baptists believe as such.... which is total belief in Sovereign Grace.

 

This figures in,
The Scriptural authority for the doctrine of decrees will appear from the following statements and references, gathered with slight modifications from Hodge's Outlines, pp, 205-213:

1. God's decrees are eternal. Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:4; 3:11; 1 Pet. 1:20; 2 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Cor. 2:7.

2. They are immutable. Ps. 33:11; Isa. 46:9.

3. They comprehend all events.

(1.) The Scriptures assert this of the whole system in general embraced in the divine decrees. Dan. 4:34, 35; Acts 17:26; Eph 1:11.

(2.) They affirm the same of fortuitous events. Prov. 16:33; Matt. 10:29, 30.

(3.) Also of the free actions of men. Eph. 2:10, 11; Phil. 2:13.

(4.) Even the wicked actions of men. Acts 2:23; 4:27, 28; 13:29; 1 Pet. 2:8; Jude 4; Rev. 17:17. As to the history of Joseph, compare Gen. 37:28, with Gen. 45:7, 8, and Gen. 50:20. See also Ps. 17:13, 14; Isa. 10:5, 15.

4. The decrees of God are not conditional. Ps. 33:11; Prov. 19:21; Isa. 14:24, 27 ; 46:10; Rom. 9:11.

5. They are sovereign. Isa. 40:13, 14; Dan. 4:35; Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:11, 15-18; Eph. 1:5, 11.

6. They include the means. Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2.

7. They determine the free actions of men. Acts 4:27, 28 ; Eph. 2:10.

8. God himself works in his people that faith and obedience which are called the conditions of salvation. Eph. 2:8 ; Phil. 2:13; 2 Tim. 2:25.

9. The decree renders the event certain. Matt. 16:21; Luke 18:31-33; 24:46; Acts 2:23; 13:29; 1 Cor. 11:19.

10. While God has decreed the free acts of men, the actors have been none the less responsible. Gen. 50:20; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:27, 28.

 

This rational investigation of truth did not lead man to know God.
here is what I believe on that;

Calvinism is the biblical teaching that humbles man and exalts Christ.

all other flesh pleasing systems exalt man in my view,and try to share some of the glory that belongs to God only.

 

Amen brother. A Pelagius view does the opposite and rejects that man needs Divine assistance in seeking God, which is fallacy. He was also ascetic, a form of self-righteousness. Go figure.

This is mere humanistic religion. It is not Biblical.

 

Iconoclast was completely Scriptural and Biblical in his rebuttal. Nothing he said is "attributing" sin to God. Nothing anyone has said has.

Simmer down.

Those are nice verses, but caustic conclusions. Yet your theory remains baseless, along with your proof-texting. Why? Because, again, no one is attributing sin to Holy God.

 

God knows ALL things, and causes SOME things, and ALLOWS other things...

ALL done for His glory, and still retains the Right to intervene at ANY time, as His Will is ultimently absolute!

 

God "permitted" Sin and Death to enter into His creation in order to bring glory to Himself by His Plans to "deal" with it!
Not caused by God, but just as with Joseph, What was planned for Evil, God turns it around for the good...

As God CANNOT tempt nor Himself be tempted as pe Apostle James!

 

Ben, have you ever read or studied the 1689 Confessions of Faith

As an FYI;

3. God's Decree

God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass.

- Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature , nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

- In all this God's wisdom is displayed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.

 

(an out of context quote of my brother Iconoclast as benjamin misrepresents it)

Hmm. I wonder what the context of that statement was?

All we get from ben is "Even the wicked actions of men." That's all. Nothing more. Reminds me of how G. A. Riplinger "quotes" others.

Another quote out of context.

That "shoe" is fitting you to perfection.

Congrats.