Calvinists: Best Argument?

[Allan]

Deleted post by me

 

[Allan]

Allan, you just make too much sense!

I don't know about all that, but I appreciate the complement.

 

[pinoybaptist]

The question that got me and that I've used on occassion as well is, "Why are you a Christian and ________ isn't a Christian? The first answer of course is always something along the line of, "because I chose to be". Then I'll keep pressing..."Why did you choose to be?". To which I'll get a response.."because the gospel was attractive to me". To which I'll reply, why was it attractive to you and not to ______. Are you smarter than_____. And of course the answer will be "no". Were you more spiritual than_______? If they say "yes", then you ask, "Why are you more spiritual?" The ultimate final reasoning has to be "All because of God".

Welcome to the board, jcjordan.

Along those lines mine would be this: Christ did not die on the cross because of what WE hold to, or what WE believe about God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, or the negatives of these things.

He died on the cross because His name is Jesus, and His name is Jesus because "HE shall save HIS people from their sins" (which incidentally does not agree with the 'whole mankind' theology").

He saved His people from their sins because it was His Father's will for them.

And this will was from eternity past, before God created the world, which, according to the Bible is when He wrote His people's names in the Book of Life.

And NONE of those whose names He wrote in that book will ever be lost, because the blood of the Lamb of Calvary covered them already before the foundation of the world, which is why He is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Therefore, the eternal security and eternal salvation of God's elect people from all ages and all tongues and all kindred is dependent solely and purely upon God's mercy and will and action, not on the elect's theology, doctrine, action, will, or philosophy which are all tainted with sin and imperfection.

Their eternal salvation was and is a done deal from eternity past, illustrated and taught in God's national people Israel who typifies His elect, and sealed with the Lamb's physical blood here in time, recorded in the Bible for the information, learning, and benefit of His people wherever the gospel reaches them.

 

[pinoybaptist]

The question that got me and that I've used on occassion as well is, "Why are you a Christian and ________ isn't a Christian? The first answer of course is always something along the line of, "because I chose to be". Then I'll keep pressing..."Why did you choose to be?". To which I'll get a response.."because the gospel was attractive to me". To which I'll reply, why was it attractive to you and not to ______. Are you smarter than_____. And of course the answer will be "no". Were you more spiritual than_______? If they say "yes", then you ask, "Why are you more spiritual?" The ultimate final reasoning has to be "All because of God".

Welcome to the board, jcjordan.

Along those lines mine would be this: Christ did not die on the cross because of what WE hold to, or what WE believe about God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, or the negatives of these things.

He died on the cross because His name is Jesus, and His name is Jesus because "HE shall save HIS people from their sins" (which incidentally does not agree with the 'whole mankind' theology").

He saved His people from their sins because it was His Father's will for them.

And this will was from eternity past, before God created the world, which, according to the Bible is when He wrote His people's names in the Book of Life.

And NONE of those whose names He wrote in that book will ever be lost, because the blood of the Lamb of Calvary covered them already before the foundation of the world, which is why He is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Therefore, the eternal security and eternal salvation of God's elect people from all ages and all tongues and all kindred is dependent solely and purely upon God's mercy and will and action, not on the elect's theology, doctrine, action, will, or philosophy which are all tainted with sin and imperfection.

Their eternal salvation was and is a done deal from eternity past, illustrated and taught in God's national people Israel who typifies His elect, and sealed with the Lamb's physical blood here in time, recorded in the Bible for the information, learning, and benefit of His people wherever the gospel reaches them.

 

[Allan]

Welcome to the board, jcjordan.

Along those lines mine would be this: Christ did not die on the cross because of what WE hold to, or what WE believe about God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, or the negatives of these things.

He died on the cross because His name is Jesus, and His name is Jesus because "HE shall save HIS people from their sins" (which incidentally does not agree with the 'whole mankind' theology").

He saved His people from their sins because it was His Father's will for them.

And this will was from eternity past, before God created the world, which, according to the Bible is when He wrote His people's names in the Book of Life.

And NONE of those whose names He wrote in that book will ever be lost, because the blood of the Lamb of Calvary covered them already before the foundation of the world, which is why He is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Therefore, the eternal security and eternal salvation of God's elect people from all ages and all tongues and all kindred is dependent solely and purely upon God's mercy and will and action, not on the elect's theology, doctrine, action, will, or philosophy which are all tainted with sin and imperfection.

Their eternal salvation was and is a done deal from eternity past, illustrated and taught in God's national people Israel who typifies His elect, and sealed with the Lamb's physical blood here in time, recorded in the Bible for the information, learning, and benefit of His people wherever the gospel reaches them.

Pinoy, if I'm not mistaken you hold do you not, that man need not do anything for salvation, which includes to believe/repent, because that makes salvation to have preconditions to it, right?

And your belief (I think) can best be summed up from a post of yours in a discussion months earlier in the thread "Can you be saved and not know it" -

"The final destination of each of God's own is in the presence of God, where they will glorify God for all eternity. Therefore, while they are commanded to obey the gospel here on earth, the fact remains that not all of God's redeemed will hear the gospel, not all will obey the gospel, not all will have the opportunity to join a gospel church for the simple reason that those charged with preaching the gospel to God's people are not omnipresent, and if so, then it follows that while one may have been covered by the blood of the Lamb for purposes of eternity, one may be subject to one's fallen environment."

emphasis mine.

So faith is not necessary but most definately benificial in a persons life who is saved already. Thus it is your opinion that a person can be saved and not know it just as a person who believes might not be saved. No one will know until the Judgment Seat of Christ in your opinion.

I am making reference to this since we are speaking salvation and the role of faith in it.

If I was wrong on any point above, please correct me, I have no problem recanting anything I might have stated in the above that is incorrect in your view.

 

[webdog]

I don't know about all that, but I appreciate the complement.

She's right...you put into words much of what I'm thinking, but cannot get down to my finger tips

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Allan, you just make too much sense!

I couldn't disagree more.

 

[Amy.G]

I couldn't disagree more.

What do you disagree with?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

You seemed to be confused. It is not 'irrestistable' if the 'will' in the sentence is contengent upon something that is not guarenteed to be done.

The above are conditional statements. Therefore due to their being 'conditional' statements they can in no way be remotely considered 'irresistable' unless one distorts the passage.

I stated the necessity of the work of the Holy Spirit in causing someone to seek Jesus. Many here deny that work is necessary. Most assume like yourself that sinful man of his own has the capacity and the desire to conjure up faith in Jesus. The Bible doesn't teach that.
When that slave-freeing, heart-opening, eye-seeing work of the Spirit occurs, the person will ask and it will be given to them.
The person will seek and they will find.
They will knock and the door will be opened.
That's irresistable grace.
None seek Jesus without the operative work of the Holy Spirit opening their eyes to their lostness.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

What do you disagree with?

That Allan's posts make sense.

 

[MB]

Welcome to the board, jcjordan.

Along those lines mine would be this: Christ did not die on the cross because of what WE hold to, or what WE believe about God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, or the negatives of these things.

He died on the cross because His name is Jesus, and His name is Jesus because "HE shall save HIS people from their sins" (which incidentally does not agree with the 'whole mankind' theology").

Actually He came to save His people and they rejected Him,
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
So He became the propitation for the sins of the whole world instead to make His people Jealous.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
He died for the whole world because He is the Propitation for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He saved His people from their sins because it was His Father's will for them.

Actually there were very few of His people saved and His people at the time were Jews not Gentiles. Most of who still do not believe in Christ.

And this will was from eternity past, before God created the world, which, according to the Bible is when He wrote His people's names in the Book of Life.

Scripture please????

And NONE of those whose names He wrote in that book will ever be lost, because the blood of the Lamb of Calvary covered them already before the foundation of the world, which is why He is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Therefore, the eternal security and eternal salvation of God's elect people from all ages and all tongues and all kindred is dependent solely and purely upon God's mercy and will and action, not on the elect's theology, doctrine, action, will, or philosophy which are all tainted with sin and imperfection.

This is because man depends on men of the past instead of depending on God.

Their eternal salvation was and is a done deal from eternity past,

If this were true you would have backed it up with scripture. This is like saying you were never a born sinner.

illustrated and taught in God's national people Israel who typifies His elect, and sealed with the Lamb's physical blood here in time, recorded in the Bible for the information, learning, and benefit of His people wherever the gospel reaches them.

Then why can't you prove all this is from scripture?
MB

 

[Amy.G]

That Allan's posts make sense.

Yes. I understand that. I should have asked what specific things about Allan's post don't make sense to you?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Hello Outsider,
I can finally get back with you on your questions:

First, I do not question that God saves by or because of His great and merciful grace. That is a fact, period.
Now to the other aspect from the above in relation to faith.
That depends on what you mean by 'faith being a gift'. If you mean that faith is not something man has the capcity of, then I disagree with you based on the millions of non-believers who place their faith in non-salvic things daily.

Categorical error.
There is no moral or eternal value attached to placing your faith in your dining room chair or any other non-salvific things or events.
If you do, that's great. You can rest your weary body. If you don't, there is no eternal condmenation.
However, if you refuse to place your faith in Christ, that carries an eternity of punishment.
There is no comparison. The Bible only speaks about two faiths, a saving one and an idolatrous, spurious one.
And the natural man creates the god of his own desires and is faithful to them unless God's Spirit creates new desires of faith in Jesus.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Yes. I understand that. I should have asked what specific things about Allan's post don't make sense to you?

I was just teasing you.
I should have included a smile after I wrote that.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Romans 8:6-8 Allan?

6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

If unregenerate, sinful men have the "capacity for faith", then why does Paul say, "nor can it do so".
It is very clear that Paul believes that unless the Spirit is controlling a person's mind, that person does not have the ability to submit to God's law. And not only does he not have the ability or "capacity", he doesn't even desire to. His mind is hostile to God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Pinoy, if I'm not mistaken you hold do you not, that man need not do anything for salvation, which includes to believe/repent, because that makes salvation to have preconditions to it, right?

And your belief (I think) can best be summed up from a post of yours in a discussion months earlier in the thread "Can you be saved and not know it" - emphasis mine.

So faith is not necessary but most definately benificial in a persons life who is saved already. Thus it is your opinion that a person can be saved and not know it just as a person who believes might not be saved. No one will know until the Judgment Seat of Christ in your opinion.

I am making reference to this since we are speaking salvation and the role of faith in it.

If I was wrong on any point above, please correct me, I have no problem recanting anything I might have stated in the above that is incorrect in your view.

Allan:

I believe that NOT everytime the Bible speaks of salvation, that it is in reference to ETERNAL salvation.

Eternal salvation is all of grace, all of God, and all of mercy.

It has no preconditions attached to it. It encompasses and includes all of God's people wherever they are, whatever they hold to in regards to theology, doctrine, or creed. When Christ redeemed His people He redeemed everyone of them whatever their color, race, tongue, custom, geographical location, or political affiliation or system may be.

I believe that God's elect are all over the earth, have always existed, and will continue to be on this earth until such time that He metes out judgment on the wicked ones.

However, contrary to what MB said I am implying, they were not born without sin. Every human being, every member of the Adamic race is fallen, and is at enmity with God because of their fallen condition, and that is exactly why Christ shed His blood for them, and which is why God must, in the person of the Holy Spirit, and the work of the Holy Spirit, regenerate them, and He does this regeneration without means.

Eternal salvation required no input from the elect, it required zilch. Not according to our righteousnesses, but according to His mercy, He saved us, was Paul's statement.

Now, I also believe that the Bible speaks of a second aspect of salvation, and this requires INPUT from the elect child of God, and here is where gospel preaching, gospel instruction, gospel baptism and membership in a gospel church comes in.

Obviously, not all of the elect will hear the gospel, much more hear the TRUE gospel. Therefore, not all will be able to come to gospel obedience, nor a public display of their repentance and faith in Christ thru baptism or membership in a gospel church.

And equally obviously, God has His elect even among those we Christians generally refer to as heathen, such as Muslims, Buddhists, Confucianists, because to say that He does not have people in these groups is to hack away at His inheritance because the Bible clearly states that He has His people from ALL kindreds, tongues, and tribes.

And equally very obviously, ALL is not ALL if God started saving people only AFTER the cross because the gospel is there to be preached already.

 

[MB]

I stated the necessity of the work of the Holy Spirit in causing someone to seek Jesus. Many here deny that work is necessary. Most assume like yourself that sinful man of his own has the capacity and the desire to conjure up faith in Jesus. The Bible doesn't teach that.
When that slave-freeing, heart-opening, eye-seeing work of the Spirit occurs, the person will ask and it will be given to them.
The person will seek and they will find.
They will knock and the door will be opened.
That's irresistable grace.
None seek Jesus without the operative work of the Holy Spirit opening their eyes to their lostness.

You know I've heard this from so many Calvinist and not one of them has any scripture to back it up. Where do you get such notions? Certainly it isn't from scripture. Man is always able to rebel. There is no such thing as irresistable grace found in scripture nor is there any such concept ever taught in scripture. Which of the men of the Past thought this one up?
MB

 

[Isaiah40:28]

You know I've heard this from so many Calvinist and not one of them has any scripture to back it up. Where do you get such notions? Certainly it isn't from scripture. Man is always able to rebel. There is no such thing as irresistable grace found in scripture nor is there any such concept ever taught in scripture. Which of the men of the Past thought this one up?
MB

Your posts contain no carefulness of thought. Just rhetoric.
Responding with care would doubtless be a colossal waste of my time.

 

[jcjordan]

Romans 2 states the reason is the unbeliever exchanges the Truth for a lie...the believer does not.

Why doesn't the believer exchange the Truth for a lie? What is different about Him? Is it because he is smarter? Wiser? More spiritual? What is the root of the difference?

 

[Amy.G]

I was just teasing you.
I should have included a smile after I wrote that.

Gotcha. :thumbs:

Glad to see you're back on the BB. I know you've got your hands full with that new baby and her big brother.