Calvinists have a "higher" view of mankind than Non-Calvinists

[saturneptune]

-----------------------------------

 

[saturneptune]

-----------------------------------------

 

[preacher4truth]

[snipped - personal attacks]

 

[saturneptune]

-------------------------------------

 

[preacher4truth]

[snipped - personal attacks]

 

[saturneptune]

-------------------------------

 

[preacher4truth]

-------------------------------

Best thing you've said yet. :wavey:

1) We weren't discussing Sovereignty and freewill when you came along to "straighten us out."

2) Nothing I said qualifies under your "You won't know until eternity" statement.

3) Obviously you rushed in assuming what we were discussing, then commented under your assumptions, and subsequently are erasing the evidence that shows you didn't even know the conversation, yet commented on it.

Yep, you went back and actually read what was said and found out you weren't even on the same channel. Congrats!! Maybe you should read and know what you're talkiing about before you comment next time? :thumbsup:


:laugh:

 

[DaChaser1]

So you call the unregenerate to leave during the sermon in a service because you distinguish who the words are for? Scripture was given to all men not just a few. God's laws/commands were given to all men not just the unregenerate. When Jesus taught the parable of the sower He did distinguish who the believers and unbelievers were. He simply taught the message and each would have heard what they needed.

The point of salvation is not the minimum of fire insurance but the minimum standard iss the same as the highest standard.

there were several purposes to the law, NONE of them was to save people!

it showed us the Holiness of God, showed us our own sinfulness, and need of a saviour

It regulated the behaviour of society, gave definite right/wrongs
it leads one to be conviced of being a siiner, cannot meet demands of God, and that Christ alone can save!

So to the lost, it just reproves them, hardens them further still

To the saved of God, the Lord gives us the HS, and ONLY a believer abiding in Christ and yielded to him can even try to keep and suceed toa degree the 'law"!

the Cross of Christ is the end of the law, as a sense of it establishing us in covenant relationship with God, as now we are under grace not law!

 

[preacher4truth]

there were several purposes to the law, NONE of them was to save people!

it showed us the Holiness of God, showed us our own sinfulness, and need of a saviour

It regulated the behaviour of society, gave definite right/wrongs
it leads one to be conviced of being a siiner, cannot meet demands of God, and that Christ alone can save!

So to the lost, it just reproves them, hardens them further still

To the saved of God, the Lord gives us the HS, and ONLY a believer abiding in Christ and yielded to him can even try to keep and suceed toa degree the 'law"!

the Cross of Christ is the end of the law, as a sense of it establishing us in covenant relationship with God, as now we are under grace not law!

What I've been saying...

 

[DaChaser1]

What I've been saying...

good! Great minds thinking a like!

 

[gb93433]

Nice twisting there, I've never said anything close to that. Knowing which passages are for the church, the regenerate, and which are not written nor applicable specifically to the lost in context doesn't mean I know who is and who isn't saved. You're getting sillier by the minute.

Jesus knew among his disciples who would betray him but his disciples did not. While we may be quite confident we still cannot know for sure. Some of those we thought we with us eventually turned against us.

Mt. 7:20-23 "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

I just happen to know when a passage is written to the church, the regenerate, and when it applies to them only. You've admitted you cannot do this which is becoming more understandable as to why.

I think there are cases when it appears obvious, but not in every case. While the message may be sent to the church and read in the church there are also people who were not believers who were listening and may have become believers after hearing. Those non-believers may be present but they are not the church. So often the message is given to them too. The parable of the sower is a good case where Jesus did not distinguish but rather appealed to all the listeners. I believe that it was a mixed group of various commitments and belief.

You wrote, "God's laws are for mankind, but keeping them is accomplished only by the regenerate as I've shown you." Believe in Acts 16:32 is directed to the listeners which I believe are not believers at the time they are hearing. It is a command to "believe". It is in the imperative mood.

You make no sense here. Why talk context now, you haven't used context to date.

Context is so important because scripture must be interpreted in light of its historical context. Without that it is only a guess as to how to correctly interpret and what the message actually is.

Just because churches have a mixture of saved and lost doesn't negate the fact that keeping the commands of God are not burdensome to the regenerate only. So your point here is moot.

Where dopes it say that in scripture. When I was not saved I never found his commandment burdensome because I did not understand anything.

The message doesn't apply to the lost, they must be saved first, so, no, it doesn't apply to everyone. Living for Christ doesn't save.

I would disagree. Living for Christ is required by all. One must believe to live for Christ. To please God Hebrew 11:6 says, " And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. It is just that some need to take the first step while others need to get off the couch instead of being lazy or fearful. The standard is the same for all -- Live for Jesus. How can one possibly live for Jesus if he does not believe?

 

[gb93433]

there were several purposes to the law, NONE of them was to save people!

it showed us the Holiness of God, showed us our own sinfulness, and need of a saviour

It regulated the behaviour of society, gave definite right/wrongs
it leads one to be conviced of being a siiner, cannot meet demands of God, and that Christ alone can save!

So to the lost, it just reproves them, hardens them further still

To the saved of God, the Lord gives us the HS, and ONLY a believer abiding in Christ and yielded to him can even try to keep and suceed toa degree the 'law"!

the Cross of Christ is the end of the law, as a sense of it establishing us in covenant relationship with God, as now we are under grace not law!

Galatians 3:24 says it well, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."

 

[gb93433]

The greatest of all, Jesus. Luke 24:27. Philip to the Eunuch, Acts 8:30 &c. Paul also did this in his preaching in the synagogues.

Good points. I was thinking of another style of preaching when I asked the question.

 

[preacher4truth]

Good points. I was thinking of another style of preaching when I asked the question.

No, you stated exegetical, which is synonymous to exposition, or, expounding.

 

[preacher4truth]

Where dopes it say that in scripture. When I was not saved I never found his commandment burdensome because I did not understand anything.

You never kept His commandments when you weren't saved, you may have thought you did, but you didn't.

I gave you this in 1 John 5:3. This is written to believers, not non-believers.

I also gave you scriptures showing you where the commands and law are a burden on, a yoke unto, and even a curse to the unregenerate.

I give you this one more time friend:

You'll have to do much better than this my friend.

You'll need more than a beating heart and active brain to do this, as will all. This need is called regeneration.

Yes the Author of the book I read says that it is not burdensome only within the context of those who are saved, as in 1 John 5:3.

Then we have this; Matthew 11:30, an invitation to come to Him, and after, His burden is light. Thus, this verse shows all those who are invited are in fact under a heavy burden, i.e. the unregenerate.

Peter also denies you here, in that he refers to, as well as others, that the Law was a yoke that none could bear, Acts 15:10. Thus, prior to regeneration, keeping these was a burden, and in the Law is the power of sin, Romans 3:20; 7:18.

Erwin Lutzer said he came to a lady and in their conversation he asked her if she were ungodly, and she rather emphatically replied that she is in no way ungodly. He told her, then Christ didn't die for you, for he died for the ungodly; Romans 5:6.

Only they who need a physician are healed, as here: "And Jesus answered and said to them, It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick..'" Luke 5:31.

None can be saved until they realize they are lost, and all unregenerate are under a burden, under wrath, and those attempting to keep the law, under a curse.

Your error comes in your failure to distinguish between passages referring to the regenerate, and passages referring to the unregenerate.

- Peace

Back to you:

I would disagree. Living for Christ is required by all. One must believe to live for Christ. To please God Hebrew 11:6 says, " And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. It is just that some need to take the first step while others need to get off the couch instead of being lazy or fearful. The standard is the same for all -- Live for Jesus. How can one possibly live for Jesus if he does not believe?

Living for Christ is not required for all. Show me where Christ tells the lost to live for Him as a command while they are lost.

Living for Christ doesn't save. As you said one must believe to live for Him, thus, one cannot until one is regenerated, and furthermore neither can one keep His commandments, and they cannot keep them until they are His sheep, John 10.

So, one cannot live for Jesus unless they are regenerate.

 

[gb93433]

No, you stated exegetical, which is synonymous to exposition, or, expounding.

I was thinking more of the idea of preaching on texts with no topic in mind. It appears to me that Jesus taught with a point/topic in mind when he expounded on the texts concerning himself. Simply because not every text in scripture points to Him.

 

[gb93433]

Living for Christ is not required for all. Show me where Christ tells the lost to live for Him as a command while they are lost.

Every time he commands them to follow Him. If they do not then hell awaits them. In John 3 he told Nicodemus that he must be born again. Is that not the same thing as living for Christ and following Him.

Living for Christ doesn't save.

I am not sure what you mean by this statement. I cannot imagine someone living for Christ who is not saved. In living for Christ the person has decided to follow Him as Lord.

As you said one must believe to live for Him, thus, one cannot until one is regenerated, and furthermore neither can one keep His commandments, and they cannot keep them until they are His sheep, John 10.

Therefore he is not living for Christ. How could one possibly be saved if they are not living for Christ?

So, one cannot live for Jesus unless they are regenerate.

I agree.

For a man to live for Christ he must be born again. Jesus called men and women to be born again and follow Him.

 

[preacher4truth]

Every time he commands them to follow Him. If they do not then hell awaits them. In John 3 he told Nicodemus that he must be born again. Is that not the same thing as living for Christ and following Him.

I am not sure what you mean by this statement. I cannot imagine someone living for Christ who is not saved. In living for Christ the person has decided to follow Him as Lord.


Therefore he is not living for Christ. How could one possibly be saved if they are not living for Christ?

I agree.

For a man to live for Christ he must be born again. Jesus called men and women to be born again and follow Him.

I think you aren't equating "following Him" with the fact that it really means be regenerated. It doesn't mean "do this and I will save you if you do a good job at it." It is an invitation to be saved. That's where you are mixing things up.

 

[gb93433]

I think you aren't equating "following Him" with the fact that it really means be regenerated. It doesn't mean "do this and I will save you if you do a good job at it." It is an invitation to be saved. That's where you are mixing things up.

No I do not believe that salvation is a result of works. Titus 3:5 and Eph. 2:8, 9 teach that. Salvation is only in Christ. I am unable to see how anyone can follow Christ and live for him if they refuse to believe. Of course believe is a verb and that calls for action as James teaches about the difference between a genuine saving faith and a creedal faith.

James 1:22, "22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves." That goes beyond knowledge and leaving making disciples, etc. to others.

Following Christ I believe is much more than a call for just salvation. I believe that is a lie that has been so prevalent for many years. The call to follow is one that says we are fishers of men and make disciples too. The first step is the decision to follow Christ as Lord not just accepting fire insurance.

Two weeks ago an older man told me that he wanted to be an evangelist. After talking awhile I said that if God has called you then what are you waiting for?" I explained to him that there is 12,000 homes in the city and that evangelism is done out there and not in a church building. He admitted that he was afraid and had never done that. That is going beyond the intellectual Christianity that has been taught so much and being a doer of the word. He is now wrestling with God.

 

[DaChaser1]

No I do not believe that salvation is a result of works. Titus 3:5 and Eph. 2:8, 9 teach that. Salvation is only in Christ. I am unable to see how anyone can follow Christ and live for him if they refuse to believe. Of course believe is a verb and that calls for action as James teaches about the difference between a genuine saving faith and a creedal faith.

James 1:22, "22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves." That goes beyond knowledge and leaving making disciples, etc. to others.

Following Christ I believe is much more than a call for just salvation. I believe that is a lie that has been so prevalent for many years. The call to follow is one that says we are fishers of men and make disciples too. The first step is the decision to follow Christ as Lord not just accepting fire insurance.

Two weeks ago an older man told me that he wanted to be an evangelist. After talking awhile I said that if God has called you then what are you waiting for?" I explained to him that there is 12,000 homes in the city and that evangelism is done out there and not in a church building. He admitted that he was afraid and had never done that. That is going beyond the intellectual Christianity that has been taught so much and being a doer of the word. He is now wrestling with God.

or iis it as that "heretic" by some here John calvin was said to have said regarding this topic...

" its indeed that one is saved by faith alone, but the faith is alone, without good works, is not the type/kind of faith that saves!"

God saves us by Act of His divine Will, and grants to us His Spirit in order to NOT fulfill lusts of the flesh, but to instead abide in christ and do his good works!

And paul had to remind the galatians, and us, that its totally work of god, as IF we chose the Spirit as our power source, will live 'rightly', but IF stillrelying upon "flesh", not so much!