Calvinists, particularly one of you, prove that the following is untrue.

[pinoybaptist]

Lurkers and active posters know there is an ongoing debate between Iconoclast, primarily, and myself, Pinoybaptist, primarily.
But, anyone who has a contribution to sharpening our irons here may post.
The ground rules are as follows:

1. First, and foremost, no more personal attacks, whether direct, or insinuating; everything is to be done decently and in order, as Scripture demands;

2. As much as possible, a doctrine, premise, or conclusion presented is to be backed up with Scripture, stating exactly what the doctrine and premise is, or can be assumed as a doctrinal logical conclusion;

3. No sarcasm (well, of course, that falls under insinuating);

4. No drive-by, three-words or a sentence posts. Particularly one that is sarcastic. I can name a few who are fond of this. Either state your case, or read, learn, and shut up.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I am starting this thread to keep the discussion focused.
Iconoclast started a thread titled "Is repentance a neccesary part of the gospel...no doubt about it!".
He started the post with these statements: Recently some misguided posters suggested that there can be un-repentant sinners who can somehow come to Christ for salvation without repentance of all known sins. Paul indicates that is just not so.
I don't know who those "misguided" posters are but I do know that I read a post of his in another thread and/or forum on this same board fuming about (well, that is how I describe it, he can deny it, though) two Primitive Baptist elders who said something derogatory about Roger Calvin.
So I assume the misguided posters would be no other but Primitive Baptists since we believe that repentance is a call to those who are regenerates and it is not what he terms a "general call", to both elect and non-elect.
I did agree with him, though, that repentance is a necessary component of the gospel.
We preach it.
One of our Elders, Mike Ivey, wrote a book on it, titled "Repentance in the Pew" (not sure title is verbatim).
We practice it.
No one who is joining any of our people's congregation, either in the East, Southeast, or anywhere in the United States, who is coming from another baptist order, is baptized and accepted a member of the congregation, UNLESS HE HAS AN EXPERIENCE OF AND TESTIMONY OF GRACE.
That, of course, includes conversion from a life of ruin to a life of hope.
Therefore, in the interest of a focused discussion, I am beginning with a positive note:

Many, if not the majority of, Primitive Baptist ministers, elders and churches believe that the whole counsel of God, call it the gospel if you will, is not "the whole counsel of God" without the preaching, and teaching, of repentance.

I say "many, if not the majority" because Primitive Baptists absolutely believe in, and respect, the autonomy of the local church, and if one church does not preach and teach repentance, that is her responsibility to the Founder and Head, Jesus Christ. The church who believes in preaching and teaching repentance is then responsible to rebuke, correct, and disengage fellowship, if she wishes to.

 

[pinoybaptist]

What we DO NOT BELIEVE is that the gospel call to repentance is a general call, that is, even those who have never been elect, never to be regenerated, are supposed to repent.

We believe it is a SPECIFIC call to specific individuals, and that is, only the regenerate elects (please take note of the qualifier: regenerate), just as the Bible, as we know it today, was written, compiled, and preserved, for God's people, AND ONLY FOR THEM.

Romans 15:4 states:

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

and Paul again reiterates the same principle to the Corinthians, the most riotous church of the New Testament:

Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come .

The Scriptures then are for God's people, NOT the entire humankind, just as the Law was given to God's national people, and ONLY THEM, and not to those who are not of Israel, just as the blood was spilled for God's people, AND ONLY THEM, and not for every Tom, Dick, and Jane, and just as the blood was commanded to be on the post of Israelite households, and not on Egyptians'.

Has God changed in His inclusivity and exclusivities ? Is Hebrews 13:8 a fantasy verse written by the human author and not inspired by the Spirit ?
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Somebody, I no longer remember if it was Iconoclast, quoted Acts 17:30 which stated, among other things, that NOW GOD COMMANDETH ALL MEN TO REPENT.

But did that mean, all mankind ?
How can God mean all mankind, when first of all, the Law was given only to the Jews, and the Scriptures only preserved for the sake of God's people's instructions, and the commandment against idolatry, and repentance from it, are known only to the people of God ?
The command, therefore, following the principle of exclusivity, excludes those that are not His, and of inclusivity, includes all (unconditional election follows this principle) of His people among men.

 

[pinoybaptist]

What we DO NOT BELIEVE is that the gospel call to repentance is a general call, that is, even those who have never been elect, never to be regenerated, are supposed to repent.

We believe it is a SPECIFIC call to specific individuals, and that is, only the regenerate elects (please take note of the qualifier: regenerate), just as the Bible, as we know it today, was written, compiled, and preserved, for God's people, AND ONLY FOR THEM.

Romans 15:4 states:

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

and Paul again reiterates the same principle to the Corinthians, the most riotous church of the New Testament:

Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come .

The Scriptures then are for God's people, NOT the entire humankind, just as the Law was given to God's national people, and ONLY THEM, and not to those who are not of Israel, just as the blood was spilled for God's people, AND ONLY THEM, and not for every Tom, Dick, and Jane, and just as the blood was commanded to be on the post of Israelite households, and not on Egyptians'.

Has God changed in His inclusivity and exclusivities ? Is Hebrews 13:8 a fantasy verse written by the human author and not inspired by the Spirit ?
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Somebody, I no longer remember if it was Iconoclast, quoted Acts 17:30 which stated, among other things, that NOW GOD COMMANDETH ALL MEN TO REPENT.

But did that mean, all mankind ?
How can God mean all mankind, when first of all, the Law was given only to the Jews, and the Scriptures only preserved for the sake of God's people's instructions, and the commandment against idolatry, and repentance from it, are known only to the people of God ?
The command, therefore, following the principle of exclusivity, excludes those that are not His, and of inclusivity, includes all (unconditional election follows this principle) of His people among men.

There, is my first premise, then.
The call to repentance is not general, it is specific, directed to all men who are regenerates.
This will entail necessarily, arguments that reflect the same arguments on whether or not the "whosoever" of John 3:16 means any and all Tom, Dick and Jane of the human race, or specific Toms, Dicks, and Janes that belong to God.
Do we agree on this as well, Icon ?

 

[righteousdude2]

Lurkers and active posters know there is an ongoing debate between Iconoclast, primarily, and myself, Pinoybaptist, primarily.
But, anyone who has a contribution to sharpening our irons here may post.
The ground rules are as follows:

1. First, and foremost, no more personal attacks, whether direct, or insinuating; everything is to be done decently and in order, as Scripture demands;

2. As much as possible, a doctrine, premise, or conclusion presented is to be backed up with Scripture, stating exactly what the doctrine and premise is, or can be assumed as a doctrinal logical conclusion;

3. No sarcasm (well, of course, that falls under insinuating);

4. No drive-by, three-words or a sentence posts. Particularly one that is sarcastic. I can name a few who are fond of this. Either state your case, or read, learn, and shut up.

I've been asking for this kind of forum debate and conversation for years. Things have gotten very bad as of late. Insinuations, innuendos, name-calling, judging ones standing in Christ. It is all wrong and should not be allowed here on the board.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I've been asking for this kind of forum debate and conversation for years. Things have gotten very bad as of late. Insinuations, innuendos, name-calling, judging ones standing in Christ. It is all wrong and should not be allowed here on the board.

It is.
But Baptists, being Baptists, there it is.
I haven't been a Baptist since birth, but, I think I've been one long enough to be able to say that.
I've seen it around for 40 years.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My God man its 5:45 AM in the morning. What are you doing up so early?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Here is the second premise for this debate, or discussion, Calvinists or Arminians.

1. The cross is past.
It is over, done with, and won't happen again. Scriptures supporting this:

John 19:30 KJV
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said , It is finished : and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Ephesians 2:16
And that he might reconcile both ("both" being all men, as unto Jew and Gentile, and in other scriptures referred to as the Jew first, and also to the Greek) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby :

Philippians 2:8 -
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

If, therefore, the cross is past, then the purposes for why it even happened has been accomplished. In his letters, Paul the apostle, the effects of the cross for the people to whom its effects were intended have for the most part, always been in the tenor of finality (see ephesians 2:16, above), the only future event being what is now popularly called the rapture.

In the Book of Revelation, we read at least four instances of the Book of Life.
In Revelation 13:8 we read that those who will worship the beast are those whose names were not written in the Book of Life.......

In Revelation 17:8 - we read almost the same thing, except now, it states WHEN the book of life was written: from the foundation of the world.

Others may argue that this is a book continually being written, and God erases and adds as He sees fit, but that falls flat to the floor when confronted with God's Omniscience. Does He or does He not know OF every human being who will ever exist in this time world which HE HIMSELF created ?

In Revelation 20:15 - we read of the Great White Throne judgment, where books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and we read in verse 15, that whosoever was not found written in the book of life was, well, toast, done for, kaput.

In fact, in the Great White Throne, we don't even read of God's sheep, His people, His redeemed, His eternally saved elect.

So, there, the cross is past and won't happen again.
That's the negative.
The positive: all for whom the cross happened, those of all nations, tongues, kindred, as described in Revelation have been benefited already, for eternity.

It sealed the redemption of ALL His people, past, present, future as in Revelation 5:9 -

And they sung a new song, saying , Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain , and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The cross is past. won't happen again. its results are permanent and covers all God's people, past, present, future.

 

[pinoybaptist]

My God man its 5:45 AM in the morning. What are you doing up so early?

Among other things besides posting this, studying.
I have been asked to preach today.
Our pastor is out of town.
prayraying: for me, brother.
as I teach the brethren gospel living.:godisgood:

 

[pinoybaptist]

My God man its 5:45 AM in the morning. What are you doing up so early?

Is it just me ?
or are you and everybody else noticing it, too.
first, that link up there on the right hand corner for our unread private messages is gone.
now, I am trying to edit a post for clarity, and the edit link on the bottom right hand corner of a post is gone.
what is going on ?

 

[salzer mtn]

If there be no general call of repentance to all men why would John Baptist say in Matt 3:2 repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. This message John preached to all people, Pharisees and Sadducees alike. Jesus Christ himself in Mark1:5 told the multitude to repent and believe the gospel. I believe the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation, to everyone that believeth, so say's the scripture. It is a savior of life unto life or a savior of death unto death. If there be no general call to all men how would God judge the lost at the end. How could the lost be responsible for their sins in that great day if they have not rejected either the gospel or the light which God has given them ? Everything that is preached is not the gospel. The Gospel unto salvation is a proclamation of Christ to lost sinners as the only means of justification to God to satisfy the laws demands.

 

[RLBosley]

Is it just me ?
or are you and everybody else noticing it, too.
first, that link up there on the right hand corner for our unread private messages is gone.
now, I am trying to edit a post for clarity, and the edit link on the bottom right hand corner of a post is gone.
what is going on ?

Just you friend. Everything is normal on my end.

 

[righteousdude2]

My God man its 5:45 AM in the morning. What are you doing up so early?

Probably the very same thing as you, reading the emBattled Forum. :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Among other things besides posting this, studying.
I have been asked to preach today.
Our pastor is out of town.
prayraying: for me, brother.
as I teach the brethren gospel living.:godisgood:

Done....with joy and exuberance brother!:godisgood:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Probably the very same thing as you, reading the emBattled Forum. :laugh:

Actually I pray early mornings....I work by 730 AM.

I am thrilled that my brother Pinoy is standing tall for our prospective on scripture. But Dude, these critics....these Cristian Know -It -All 's need to be either combated or ignored .....and I chose to ignore them and my brother Tim chooses the other approach. It should prove interesting.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Just you friend. Everything is normal on my end.

okay. must be some browser quirk again. looks like I will really have to kick google chrome out. try IE, or Mozilla, or even Opera. see what happens. thanks for letting me know.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Is it just me ?
or are you and everybody else noticing it, too.
first, that link up there on the right hand corner for our unread private messages is gone.
now, I am trying to edit a post for clarity, and the edit link on the bottom right hand corner of a post is gone.
what is going on ?

Tim....did you change your personnel programming that you do not want private messages? Check that.

 

[pinoybaptist]

If there be no general call of repentance to all men why would John Baptist say in Matt 3:2 repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. This message John preached to all people, Pharisees and Sadducees alike. Jesus Christ himself in Mark1:5 told the multitude to repent and believe the gospel. I believe the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation, to everyone that believeth, so say's the scripture. It is a savior of life unto life or a savior of death unto death. If there be no general call to all men how would God judge the lost at the end. How could the lost be responsible for their sins in that great day if they have not rejected either the gospel or the light which God has given them ? Everything that is preached is not the gospel. The Gospel unto salvation is a proclamation of Christ to lost sinners as the only means of justification to God to satisfy the laws demands.

Again, please note the speaker, the "spoken to", and the place or venue where the speaking is being made.
The speaker: John, a jew, a jewish prophet.
The spoken: The Israelites, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Pharisees. Not a mention of a Gentile present, or of any who were not "born under the law".
The venue: Jordan River, in Israel.

There is a call of repentance to all men, but only in the sense of those who are "Israel". Do you have an idea of what that phrase means ? They are not all Israel who are of Israel. The call is to the regenerate people who are of the "Israel of God", among Israel (both Jew and Gentile).

Have you even read Revelation 20 ? The "lost" as you call them were judged according to their works, which includes all sins from unbelief to everything done by the unregenerate in time. And, finally, as if to seal and prove their worthiness to judgment, the book of life is opened, and, lo and behold, their names were never among those God wrote from the foundation of the world.

Doctrinal conclusion: only those whose names were written by God in that book from the foundation of the world, have been foreknown, predestinated, called, justified, and glorified as in Romans 8:29-30 thru Christ, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Everything pertaining to God's elect people were done in Christ from the foundation of the world. The things that happened here in this time were to substantiate things that were done in eternity past.

That is the purpose why God took on human form. That is the purpose why He established a national Israel from one man. That is the purpose of all those pictures, types, shadows, picture words, etc., that we find all over the Old Testament. Substantiation.

Redemption of all the elect, dead, alive, and still to be born is over. The Holy Spirit's task now is to quicken, bring alive, regenerate each and every one of them, Jew and Gentile alive, and He is doing it, with or without the gospel, so the call to repentance is not general as in all mankind, but to the regenerate elect among all mankind.

The Holy Spirit quickens, and draws the regenerate to Christ.
The task of the church is glorification of her Lord, in the midst of condemned unbelievers, not to win sous to Christ. He has already done that.
Gospel living.
That is what we are to teach those whom the Lord redeemed with His blood, and, brings to any of His timely fold.

 

[Van]

Premise #1, the call to repentance is not to all men, the lost and the saved, but only to the saved.

My view, is that the premise is false, mistaken and errant. In contrast, my view is that the call to repentance is part of the call of the gospel of Jesus Christ to all mankind.

The Greek word translated repentance means to do an about face, to change direction. Thus, to change from going away from God and turn toward God, seeking His righteousness.

So Premise #1 deals only with those who have been saved and are seeking to become more like Christ, turning from sin and toward righteousness.

Let's consider Matthew 11:20, "Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent." If this call to repentance was only for the saved, or elect, or regenerates, then either was must accept that everyone in those cites were saved already. Chances of that are nill. Therefore premise #1 is mistaken.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Tim....did you change your personnel programming that you do not want private messages? Check that.

I just checked. In the private messages section, I see that I am allowed "O" messages.
I could not find where to edit this.
I am now using IE v. 11, and the situation is still the same.
No pm's link, no edit link.
if I need to edit anything, I need to use the quote feature and ......this is getting ridiculous.
I hope the good admins are reading this.