Can a believer sin?

[TCGreek]

I have a Lord that never leaves me and knows everything I do. He also chastises me for everyone of those sins, so I be not condemned with the world. So I have to put all my trust in Him that He will keep His word and deliver me without spot or blemish.

1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Me too. :thumbs:

 

[Brother Bob]

I am absolutely astounded at the number of people I encounter who 'want' 'conditional' salvation, but 'free' discipleship. That has it exactly backwards.

Ed

Does it include the Lord?

Hbr 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Hbr 10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.

Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

The price has long since been paid, for me, in and by the precious blood of the Lamb. Salvation, to and for me is Absolutely Free!

Maybe you can show me where if you wilfully sin in the future, that it is covered by the blood at the cross, Absolutely free!!

 

[James_Newman]

Good answer except the "literal" thousand year kingdom".
I guess you know that the "church doctrine was a spiritual thousand year reign" for around 1600 years, and is not going on.

But before that the church was overwhelmingly premillennial for about 300 years. This is a historical fact. Why would the church closest to Jesus and the Apostles expect a literal return and literal thousand year reign?

 

[npetreley]

But before that the church was overwhelmingly premillennial for about 300 years. This is a historical fact. Why would the church closest to Jesus and the Apostles expect a literal return and literal thousand year reign?

Hey, James. Since you're around, by whose righteousness will you enter the kingdom?

 

[Brother Bob]

But before that the church was overwhelmingly premillennial for about 300 years. This is a historical fact. Why would the church closest to Jesus and the Apostles expect a literal return and literal thousand year reign?

You had Justin and a couple more who were literal. I don't think that is overwhelmingly. The rest believed it to be Spiritual.

 

[James_Newman]

You had Justin and a couple more who were literal. I don't think that is overwhelmingly. The rest believed it to be Spiritual.

I don't know, brother. Here is an article on the issue.
http://www.biblicist.org/bible/premil.shtml

I think even the preterists would have to concede that premil was the dominant position of the early church.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/hill-charles_04_01.html

 

[Brother Bob]

I guess we can find just about whatever would suit our theology.

I think it held on until 3AD is because of the Jewish influence of the Chiliasm which is the Jewish doctrine.

Eventually, literal was declared heretic. The church doctrine for the next 1600 years plus or minus stated it to be spiritual, along with the New Heaven and New Earth.

http://the-highway.com/chiliasm_Masselink.html

The Judaistic features of Chiliasm can be readily seen by an examination of the Apocalyptic writings of the Jews. The genesis of this doctrine may be found in these writings which are generally dated in the pre-Christian period.


When at a later date the Pharisees asked Him concerning the time of the coming of the kingdom of God, the Lord replied, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.” The Pharisees were thinking of an earthly Messianic kingdom which was to come with observation and power. Jesus corrects their mistake by telling them the true spiritual nature of the kingdom. This could not be perceived by the unregenerate mind because the whole nature of that kingdom was elevated far above their realm of thought.

 

[James_Newman]

I guess we can find just about whatever would suit our theology.

I think it held on until 3AD is because of the Jewish influence of the Chiliasm which is the Jewish doctrine.

Eventually, literal was declared heretic. The church doctrine for the next 1600 years plus or minus stated it to be spiritual, along with the New Heaven and New Earth.

This would be the same 1600 years when those who declined to admit that the kingdom was spiritual and the pope was the king were burned at the stake. I would just as soon reject 1600 years of error.

http://the-highway.com/chiliasm_Masselink.html

The Judaistic features of Chiliasm can be readily seen by an examination of the Apocalyptic writings of the Jews. The genesis of this doctrine may be found in these writings which are generally dated in the pre-Christian period.


When at a later date the Pharisees asked Him concerning the time of the coming of the kingdom of God, the Lord replied, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.” The Pharisees were thinking of an earthly Messianic kingdom which was to come with observation and power. Jesus corrects their mistake by telling them the true spiritual nature of the kingdom. This could not be perceived by the unregenerate mind because the whole nature of that kingdom was elevated far above their realm of thought.

The church was unregenerate for 300 years because they understood Jesus to be literally returning to this world. I guess I am unregenerate too. So are these guys.
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[Brother Bob]

4: John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6: And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Jesus said the Kingdom is "within" you. Already and even he by saying it is within you acknowledged it was spiritual.

 

[James_Newman]

4: John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6: And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Jesus said the Kingdom is "within" you. Already and even he by saying it is within you acknowledged it was spiritual.

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

2 Timothy 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[Brother Bob]

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

2 Timothy 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

All this says is that His Kingdom is from above and is within us and we are being judged everyday of our lives.

 

[James_Newman]

Jesus appears everyday? You aren't Catholic, are you?

 

[Brother Bob]

Jesus appears everyday? You aren't Catholic, are you?

No, just a Baptist that believes Jesus when He says the Kingdom is already here.

1Jo 4:13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

2Cr 6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[James_Newman]

No, just a Baptist that believes Jesus when He says the Kingdom is already here.

1Jo 4:13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

2Cr 6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So what about the appearing of the Lord?

 

[Brother Bob]

So what about the appearing of the Lord?

You mean when He comes in His power and His Glory to redeem His people from the earth? It won't be long now.

You do know He is Omnipresence, don't you?

 

[James_Newman]

You mean when He comes in His power and His Glory to redeem His people from the earth? It won't be long now.

Is that what this verse is talking about?
2 Timothy 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

You do know He is Omnipersence, don't you?

 

[DHK]

Most of you are simply playing a game of semantics.
Jesus said to Nicodemus: "Except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
The Jews were expecting a Messiah to come and deliver them from the Romans and set up a Kingdom, the Kingdom as they understood it from the OT. Jesus refers to this Kingdom as he speaks to Nicodemus. But he sasy it is absolutely necessary for him to be born again. He states it three times.
To be born again is to be saved. It is to believe on Christ and his sacrifical work on the cross.
Nicodemus and the Jews were expecting Jesus to set up a Kingdom; they were not expecting (nor did they understand) a "suffering Messiah." They had to be born again. They had to go through the "suffering Messiah" first. They had to be saved through accepting the work of Christ. Without that they would never see the Kingdom. First they must be born again (saved). If Christ didn't come before they died, they would go to heaven and await until Christ would come back to earth (after the tribulation) and set up his Kingdom (at which time they and all the NT saints would come back with Him). Then, finally, they would enter into the Kingdom. Jesus wasn't going to give Nicodemus an entire eschatological timeline of events right then. He simply said: "Except a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." A true statement. But it does not mean that the Kingdom immediately follows being born again.

 

[Brother Bob]

Except a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." A true statement. But it does not mean that the Kingdom immediately follows being born again.

But Jesus said it did.

Luk 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

I don't understand why we can't just accept the words of Jesus? Why do we have to add all these different kingdoms, times, earthly reigns, Jesus didn't.

Do you all actually believe the "true Kingdom" was hidden for 1600 years from the believers and saved? That I really find hard to believe.

 

[James_Newman]

But Jesus said it did.

Luk 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

I don't understand why we can't just accept the words of Jesus? Why do we have to add all these different kingdoms, times, earthly reigns, Jesus didn't.

Thats a very simplistic understanding of the kingdom, brother. Obviously the kingdom is here in some sense, but its complete literal manifestation is not yet, and will not be until He returns. There is no throne for you to sit on, there is no ruling with a rod of iron. The kingdoms of this world are not yet made the kingdom of our Lord. Satan is still the god of this world. We are pilgrims.

 

[Brother Bob]

Thats a very simplistic understanding of the kingdom, brother. Obviously the kingdom is here in some sense, but its complete literal manifestation is not yet, and will not be until He returns. There is no throne for you to sit on, there is no ruling with a rod of iron. The kingdoms of this world are not yet made the kingdom of our Lord. Satan is still the god of this world. We are pilgrims.

Jhn 15:19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

There have been many who have passed before us who were greater in wisdom than I, and for 1600 years they preached it was spiritual, Jesus came along and He said it was spiritual, here in the last 200 years because John Darby came up with this earthly reign or at least brought it to the forefront and the Baptist swallowed line, hook and sinker, that many now say it is literal.