Can a Dead Body Sin?

[steaver]

I will answer posts as I see them conducive for instruction to the list and to the setting forth of truth, not when others simply brow beat for whatever reasons.

I love you brother! :wavey:

Let me say that from what I know of you and your post I believe you are a sincere born of God brother in Christ and I am even more fond of you now that i heard some of your testimony and that it is much like my own.

I don't want to "brow beat" a brother in Christ. I will brow beat a doctrine though. You answered my question a bit obscurely in my opinion so I wanted to make clarification before assuming anything.

I believe you do see a problem with your views of Romans 8 when applying them to your very own testimony. Why not answer these questions and let the truth shape this discussion. Are you absolutely unwilling to question your own beliefs? I like to allow all questions so that I am always satisfied that my view is correct. Above all, even my own convictions, I want God's word to shape my views and forever test my views. Let the questions fly! I will answer each and every one. If my view is exposed as wrong I will make the adjustments. God's word must prevail!

Here they are again if it pleases you to respond, not with any speeches, but with answers, like "yes" or "no"..........

HP; I gave my heart to the Lord at an early age at a youth camp and had a relationship with the Lord for several years.

When you say "had a relationship with the Lord" do you mean Spirit had given birth to your spirit, born again(Jo 3), received His seed(1Jo 3:9), received His seal of ownership(Eph 4:30), received His unction(1Jo 2:20)?

HP: I fell prey to temptations and lusts in my early teens which led to a life filled with sin for many years.

Did you have the Spirit of Christ while living this part of your life filled with sin?


God Bless brother :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: I will brow beat a doctrine though…………Did you have the Spirit of Christ while living this part of your life filled with sin?

HP: I am not certain what ‘doctrine’ you are referring to with this line of questioning...but I do like the manner in which your last post comes across to me at least.:thumbs:

Just the same I will add that all men have the influence of the Spirit of God to a certain degree unless the Spirit has been withdrawn. Before I was born again I had the spirit of God convicting my heart of sin and drawing me to obedience. When I became a believer at a young age I directed my intents inline with benevolence as much as was within me and in according to my knowledge of the truth at that time. I turned from that obedience and fell once again into a life driven by lust and selfishness, and no longer could it be said that I loved God. My life changed from one set on obedeience to one of selfishness and that continually. I loved the fruits of my selfishness more than I loved God as proved by my works. It no more could be said that I loved God during those dark sinful years than it could be said I was a loving father or that I loved others around me. ‘On the path that I was on’ my only hope was that of standing before a Just and Holy God without an Advocate, and hell as my only just reward. God revealed that truth to my heart one day as I sat in the funeral service of a close friend that was living a life of sin in like kind to my own. God was speaking to my heart for what I felt was a clear and precise warning of the end, that without a direct turn, I would see as my final reality. I am happy to say that I fell on my knees that day and gave my heart and life once again to the Lord in repentance and faith. I have been a changed man in heart and life ever since.

I will let you now address the part that pertains to the ‘doctrine’ you wish to address.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Let me add this thought. When we speak of the Spirit of God interacting with man it is often thought of in sense of ‘to what relationship He so sustains. For instance, before salvation He sustains to us the relationship of a councilor, drawing and wooing us via conviction for sin and via our conscience and ability to know right from wrong.

Subsequent to salvation He sustains the relationship of a Loving Father, friend and one that sticks closer than a brother. In this relationship we have an assurance of our final standing before God and our eternal destiny as being one of peace and bliss with God.

As a believer falls into the trap of sin, such as I did, and that for years, I cannot tell you when it was that my hope of eternal life disappeared as the morning fog and the hope of eternal damnation set in, but just the same, there came a time that God made my demise and future state separated from God was made plain to my heart. It matters not at what point and time I was considered once again an enemy of God, but none the less I passed that line at some point and time. I was full of sin, undone, and awoke to find myself without hope once again. The Spirit of God came in convicting power and warning me of my impending doom. One thing was for certain. The hope I once knew was gone and the relationship that once was sustained betwen God and myself was no longer existing. I was as lost as any sinner could be. Thank the Lord, those days are past and the Daystar is shining brightly upon my life. I once again have been restored to that loving fellowship only known betwen a loving God and His children. The Holy Spirt now once again sustains to me a relationship that I am a child of God and I hold for certain that hope of eternal life with Him by faith!

Not by works that I have done, but by your grace oh God I am saved! Just the same, such a relationship will never be sustained with which our works serve as the fulfillment of the conditions God has set down in his Word as necessary to inherit eternal life.

God has not so designed our assurance of our final standing with Him to be realized while we are in a state of disobedience and sin. 1Jo 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[steaver]

HP: I am not certain what ‘doctrine’ you are referring to with this line of questioning...but I do like the manner in which your last post comes across to me at least.:thumbs:

Well, we are blood brothers :thumbs:

Just the same I will add that all men have the influence of the Spirit of God to a certain degree unless the Spirit has been withdrawn.

Amen! this is scripture.

Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When I became a believer at a young age I directed my intents inline with benevolence as much as was within me and in according to my knowledge of the truth at that time.

This answers my first question. Yes, you were born again at a young age.

I turned from that obedience and fell once again into a life driven by lust and selfishness, and no longer could it be said that I loved God. My life changed from one set on obedeience to one of selfishness and that continually. I loved the fruits of my selfishness more than I loved God as proved by my works. It no more could be said that I loved God during those dark sinful years than it could be said I was a loving father or that I loved others around me. ‘On the path that I was on’ my only hope was that of standing before a Just and Holy God without an Advocate, and hell as my only just reward. God revealed that truth to my heart one day as I sat in the funeral service of a close friend that was living a life of sin in like kind to my own. God was speaking to my heart for what I felt was a clear and precise warning of the end, that without a direct turn, I would see as my final reality. I am happy to say that I fell on my knees that day and gave my heart and life once again to the Lord in repentance and faith. I have been a changed man in heart and life ever since.

Our testimonies are so similiar. I was born-again at age ten. At age 23 I chose to sin (the "big" sins) and lived in sin for the next ten years. At age 33 two brothers in Christ witnessed to me, believing I was unsaved and it challenged me to examine myself. I studied the scriptures for the first time ever and discovered they had good reason to believe that I wasn't saved. I repented of my sin and began studying God's word daily. I am 44 now and love every minute of the time I get to spend in His word and in fellowship with His children. I feel remorse to this day for the ten years I spent wasting my time and God's time.

But here is the delema I faced. Was I born of God at age ten or was I born of God at age 33? This was very important, I needed to know the answer. After many months of study and prayer I came to the conclusion that I truly had been born-again at age ten. I reflected back on the time I prayed to God confessing my sins and asking Jesus to be my Savior. The years following I always had a daily relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit led me into righteousness. As I testified before, I chose sin at age 23 with the Holy Spirit shaking my very being to not engage.

So I asked you. Did you have the Holy Spirit while you were living this life of sin?

You can only find this answer in scripture. The question is not did you feel you had the Holy Spirit while living in this sin, for we all at times feel God is very far off, ecspecially when we break fellowship through sin.

According to the scripture you cannot say you would have gone to hell if you died while in the condition of rebellion. This is only a feeling. One can only be born of God once. Being born of God is receiving the Holy Spirit indwellment through regeneration. It is not a coming along side or even a coming along inside but it is the creation of an entirely new creature. This is why it is called a birth.

1Cr 6:17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Cr 6:20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

If you were born again prior to this sinfest then you most certainly did have the Holy Spirit regeneration indwellment as you were sinning. And since you had the Holy Spirit indwellment you most certainly would have gone to heaven if found dead in such a condition of sin. Those having the Spirit of Christ belong to Christ. Those having not the Spirit of Christ do not belong to Christ. Children of God do not go to hell. Sins are paid for and covered by Jesus Christ for every soul that received Him.

Your sin and my sin caused us to "feel" lost as it should. God could have taken us home and we would have found ourselves at His feet with nothing to offer but a bunch of wasted life. But praise Him! He called us to repentence and is letting us a chance to complete the good works which He before ordained that we should walk in.

I felt lost as well HP. But the scripture teaches regeneration and this can only take place once. You did indeed have the Spirit while living in this sin. Having the Spirit is God's seal of ownership as a child of His.

As I said before, you and I are very good examples of OSAS.

God Bless! :wavey:

 

[Amy.G]

I felt lost as well HP. But the scripture teaches regeneration and this can only take place once. You did indeed have the Spirit while living in this sin. Having the Spirit is God's seal of ownership as a child of His.
As I said before, you and I are very good examples of OSAS.

God Bless!
__________________
steaver

:applause:

:godisgood:

Praise :jesus:




So HP.......REJOICE!

 

[steaver]

So HP.......REJOICE!

Amen! :godisgood:

 

[Brother Bob]

That "sea of forgetfulness" has to be mighty handy doesn't it. "never to be remembered against you again" must be done over and over too. Seems God has to save you and save you and save you, no end to it. How many times did Jesus die for sins, someone refresh my mind???? Or, is it because you are saved, that means sinning ain't sinning, just fun for the flesh????? I guess its hard to wait until church is over, so you can get back to some of that non-sinning? You know some of the early preachers, preached that the MK would be for fulfilling all sensual desires of the flesh.

So, the person that says within himself, I think I will go over and hit on my neighbor's wife. Her husband is not there, so it will be a good time. Me and the indwelling Holy Spirit will just bounce right over there and have some good old fashion lustful sexual experience with my neighbor. I will be alright though, the Holy Spirit is with me. Jeepers...................:tear:

Then along comes Jesus and says "go and sin no more", for if you do willingly, you will not be in Heaven. (My words), but scripture will certainly support it. Man, a lot of people are going to come up short, I am afraid. I will try and warn them, but don't think they will listen. I think they have figured out a way around it all, in their mind.

I have great confidence in you HP, for what I have learned of you now. I will not attempt to make you righteous, if you were out there as the world in the past. It is not mine to give or take away anyway. I know this, you have a heart and mind of your own, and if you were serving the devil for a while, the Spirit of the Lord may have been there but it was there to tell you of your condition, not to console your soul, and Jesus says, if you die in your sins, where I am you cannot come. The truth must be told.

BBob,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: the Spirit of the Lord may have been there but it was there to tell you of your condition, not to console your soul, and Jesus says, if you die in your sins, where I am you cannot come. The truth must be told

.

HP: The work of the Spirit in my life as a sinner away from God was exactly as you put it. God was dealing with me over my lost condition and had to bring me to a point to realize that my eternal hope did not consist of eternity with God but rather an eternity in hell on the path I was on. Oh yes, I had started well in the right direction but turned my back on the truth and was retreating on a selfish path of sin, lost and undone without hope. God faithfully warned me to turn and repent and to once again walk in the direction worthy of being called an obedient child of God. Only as I did exactly that did the Spirit testify to my Spirit that my eternal hope was once again with God.

Our assurance of eternal life is not designed to grant assurance to anyone that is in a state refusing to repent and turn, actively engaged in selfish disobedience to known commandments of God. It is nothing short of deception to believe otherwise. “If ye love me, keep My commandments.” “1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

 

[Brother Bob]

.

HP: The work of the Spirit in my life as a sinner away from God was exactly as you put it. God was dealing with me over my lost condition and had to bring me to a point to realize that my eternal hope did not consist of eternity with God but rather an eternity in hell on the path I was on. Oh yes, I had started well in the right direction but turned my back on the truth and was retreating on a selfish path of sin, lost and undone without hope. God faithfully warned me to turn and repent and to once again walk in the direction worthy of being called an obedient child of God. Only as I did exactly that did the Spirit testify to my Spirit that my eternal hope was once again with God.

Our assurance of eternal life is not designed to grant assurance to anyone that is in a state refusing to repent and turn, actively engaged in selfish disobedience to known commandments of God. It is nothing short of deception to believe otherwise. “If ye love me, keep My commandments.” “1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

I am so thankful you understood, what I was saying. I wouldn't hurt you for the world. God Bless and I am glad you have that true "peace" to your soul.

BBob,

 

[steaver]

HP: The work of the Spirit in my life as a sinner away from God was exactly as you put it. God was dealing with me over my lost condition and had to bring me to a point to realize that my eternal hope did not consist of eternity with God but rather an eternity in hell on the path I was on. Oh yes, I had started well in the right direction but turned my back on the truth and was retreating on a selfish path of sin, lost and undone without hope. God faithfully warned me to turn and repent and to once again walk in the direction worthy of being called an obedient child of God. Only as I did exactly that did the Spirit testify to my Spirit that my eternal hope was once again with God.

Do you know exactly what Brother Bob believes HP? He believes those who sin like we did NEVER were Born of God in the first place. Is this what you believe?

I wish you would have said this earlier, this clears things up much better. When I asked you if you had been born-again before plunging into this life of sin you basically implied yes. If the above statement is accurate, and God showed you that you was in a lost condition, then you were being drawn by the Holy Spirit and never ever saved (born of God) yet, even though you "thought" maybe you were.

See it isn't about what we "feel or think", it is about what God's word declares of the lost and of the saved.

If you were in a lost condition as you say you were, then you did not HAVE the Holy Spirit INDWELLMENT. We have to rely upon scripture and the scripture makes it emphatically clear that those born of God have the Holy Spirit indwellment, regeneration, a new creature.

You seem to think that born-again is something that comes and goes. This is your error in understanding the scriptures and God's work in your own life.

Our assurance of eternal life is not designed to grant assurance to anyone that is in a state refusing to repent and turn, actively engaged in selfish disobedience to known commandments of God. It is nothing short of deception to believe otherwise. “If ye love me, keep My commandments.” “1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

AMEN! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

That "sea of forgetfulness" has to be mighty handy doesn't it. "never to be remembered against you again" must be done over and over too. Seems God has to save you and save you and save you, no end to it.

Amen! To the uttermost! Always mentoring, chasening those He loves and being that Perfect Father. Praise Him!

How many times did Jesus die for sins, someone refresh my mind????

It was Once :thumbs:

Or, is it because you are saved, that means sinning ain't sinning, just fun for the flesh?????

It's still sinning.

I guess its hard to wait until church is over, so you can get back to some of that non-sinning?

Many are sinning in thought as they sit in church. Maybe their minds are wondering off into sin as they are being bored to death by unSpirited sermons.

So, the person that says within himself, I think I will go over and hit on my neighbor's wife. Her husband is not there, so it will be a good time. Me and the indwelling Holy Spirit will just bounce right over there and have some good old fashion lustful sexual experience with my neighbor. I will be alright though, the Holy Spirit is with me. Jeepers...................:tear:

Every situation has it's on circumstances, but the one you described above seems to go against what a born of God person would say in his heart.

Then along comes Jesus and says "go and sin no more", for if you do willingly, you will not be in Heaven. (My words), but scripture will certainly support it

Glad you put in the "(my words)" .

Man, a lot of people are going to come up short, I am afraid. I will try and warn them, but don't think they will listen. I think they have figured out a way around it all, in their mind.

Keep warning them brother, there is no harm in preaching to keep yourself holy and blameless. Those looking for ways around condemnation for sin are most likely unregenerated.

God Bless! :jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
How many times did Jesus die for sins, someone refresh my mind????

Steaver: It was Once

HP: And how many sins were paid for, or to whom did Christ die? Is it possible for sins to be paid for, once for all, yet not be an effective payment in regards to some? If you say that we must receive the gift in order for the payment made to be effective, how can you avoid holding to it being man that determines in the end who is saved and who is not? What power does man have to make of no effect a payment made once for all by God Himself before they were ever born?? If God made a payment for all sins once for all, why will not all be saved in the end? What sins will a sinner in hell be held responsible for if all have been paid for once for all?

How can a payment be made, in the sense of a literal payment, “once for all” and yet in reality not be an effective payment, save in the case of the elect, without holding to the notion of a limited atonement?

 

[steaver]

HP: And how many sins were paid for, or to whom did Christ die? Is it possible for sins to be paid for, once for all, yet not be an effective payment in regards to some? If you say that we must receive the gift in order for the payment made to be effective, how can you avoid holding to it being man that determines in the end who is saved and who is not? What power does man have to make of no effect a payment made once for all by God Himself before they were ever born?? If God made a payment for all sins once for all, why will not all be saved in the end? What sins will a sinner in hell be held responsible for if all have been paid for once for all?

How can a payment be made, “once for all” and yet in reality not be an effective payment, save in the case of the elect, without holding to the notion of a limited atonement?

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Jesus made one exception, otherwise all means all. Unto men means unto men. He did not say unto all Christians.
:godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Do you know exactly what Brother Bob believes HP? He believes those who sin like we did NEVER were Born of God in the first place. Is this what you believe?

HP: No, that is not what I believe. Just the same, in spite of my possible disagreement with Brother Bob on this particular issue, we both are in agreement, as I understand him, that sinners and the righteous are not one in the same, and those that are actively engaged in sin, regardless of who they think they are or what they believe has been accomplished in regards to their salvation in the past, are in danger of loosing their souls if they continue to the end in disobedience, refusing to repent for their sins. I see the views of Brother Bob miles apart from those I have heard supporting nothing short of a sinning religion on this list.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Jesus made one exception, otherwise all means all. Unto men means unto men. He did not say unto all Christians.

HP: Very well. If that is your position answer the other questions I asked you.

 

[steaver]

HP: No, that is not what I believe. Just the same,

You love to use this expression. Things that are opposites are not just the same. This is why it is soo difficult to follow your train of thought and this is why it appears you have no solid positions.

....we both are in agreement, as I understand him, that sinners and the righteous are not one in the same, and those that are actively engaged in sin, regardless of who they think they are or what they believe has been accomplished in regards to their salvation in the past, are in danger of loosing their souls if they continue to the end in disobedience, refusing to repent for their sins. I see the views of Brother Bob miles apart from those I have heard supporting nothing short of a sinning religion on this list.

This is not the same as brother Bob's view. Bob's view is that Christians do not sin, period! If you have sinned (these are the "big" sins like adultery he speaks of) then you are not and NEVER was a Christian.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: You love to use this expression. Things that are opposites are not just the same. This is why it is soo difficult to follow your train of thought and this is why it appears you have no solid positions.

HP: The expression I use has nothing to do with opposites as you suggest. It is as if to say, “although this may be the case, still yet (or 'just the same' or 'in spite of that being the case') there is agreement on other points.” It is as if saying, although there is disagreement, that does not negate the agreeement on other issues.

 

[steaver]

HP: And how many sins were paid for, or to whom did Christ die?

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Is it possible for sins to be paid for, once for all, yet not be an effective payment in regards to some?

No.

If you say that we must receive the gift in order for the payment made to be effective, how can you avoid holding to it being man that determines in the end who is saved and who is not?

Jhn 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What power does man have to make of no effect a payment made once for all by God Himself before they were ever born??

none.

If God made a payment for all sins once for all, why will not all be saved in the end?

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.


All will not believe.

What sins will a sinner in hell be held responsible for if all have been paid for once for all?

blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost

:godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: If you have sinned (these are the "big" sins like adultery he speaks of) then you are not and NEVER was a Christian.

HP: I believe it is you that do not understand his position. I have read numerous posts of his and have never heard him state or suggest that a believer has never, in the past, sinned as you here state. Brother Bob can and I am sure will speak for himself, but I see him at antipodes with the notion that one claiming to be a child of God can sin with impunity or that one believing themselves to be a child of God can commit the same sins as the sinner without true repentance and avoid the sinners fate. I see Brother Bob as believing that Christians are those that love God and keep His commandments, not those that say they love God and live after the flesh. If I am wrong, Brother Bob can set me straight.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver, what is the meaning of the word ‘blasphemy?’