Can CoC be considered Christian?

[Stanedglass]

He was one who believed and practiced the Bible--a forerunner of Christ.
Though he was a "Baptist" in name, did not make him a "Baptist" in today's doctrine for even Christ stated that he was the last of the OT prophets. Our doctrine is obtained primarily from the NT, especially when relevant to local church polity, the ordinances of Christ, the priesthood of believers, etc.

Your understanding of repentance is woefully lacking. Repentance is not a work and never has been. It is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude to the authority of God. That is not a work. What work is done in changing your mind? People change their mind all the time but do not consider it work. If I could get paid every time I changed my mind about something what a wonderful world it would be. (I'll have one sugar in my coffee; no, wait--I have changed my mind, make that two. Hey, where's my pay for that! )
It is God that changes not; not man.

Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude to the authority of God.
It is not a work!!

Salvation is by faith alone. Anything less than that is not salvation, and is another gospel.

Then why does God call us to Repentance? Why would the men in Acts 2 say " Men and Brethren What shall WE do and why would Peter say "Repent"?

Repentance is very much a work on our part, or perhaps I should say an Act of Faith!

 

[Darron Steele]

Then why does God call us to Repentance? Why would the men in Acts 2 say " Men and Brethren What shall WE do and why would Peter say "Repent"?

Repentance is very much a work on our part, or perhaps I should say an Act of Faith!

Repentance is part of faith. It is not a work apart from faith.

How can a person genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and not immediately repent of living out of harmony with His will? It is impossible.

A so-called "faith" that does not include repentance is not biblical, genuine faith.

 

[DHK]

I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but show me in the Word of God that if someone does not believe in the Trinity they are not Christian?

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Who is the "he" that Christ is referring to? He is referring to himself: the Messiah, the second person of the triune Godhead, the Creator and sustainer of all things--God Almighty Himself. They rejected God in the flesh.

The "he" is not Allah. It is Christ, the second person of the triune Godhead, the God of the Bible. He is not Buddha, or Vishna, or Brahma, or any other number of false gods. He is Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith. If one does not believe in the right God, then one cannot have salvation.

Know what you believe; and know why you believe it.

 

[JSM17]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanedglass
Then why does God call us to Repentance? Why would the men in Acts 2 say " Men and Brethren What shall WE do and why would Peter say "Repent"?

Repentance is very much a work on our part, or perhaps I should say an Act of Faith!
Darron Steele wrote:
Repentance is part of faith. It is not a work apart from faith.

How can a person genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and not immediately repent of living out of harmony with His will? It is impossible.

A so-called "faith" that does not include repentance is not biblical, genuine faith.

Darron and DHK, why not actually answer his question, if repentance is not something that we do, then why did Peter not say "Do nothing"? Instead he tells them to repent.

Nobody said repentance is a work apart from faith, yet it is a work done in faith yet still a work that leads one to receive the blessing from God of having our past sins remitted.

 

[Darron Steele]

Darron and DHK, why not actually answer his question,...

I did.

You may not have liked the answer, but I answered it.

Just because you do not like the answer does not mean that you get to claim I did not answer it.

He asked the question; you did not. You do not get to determine the suitability of our answers to it.

I might add that there are many questions direct to you that you outright dodge. Many of us have noticed this. You do it routinely. For you to accuse anyone of dodging questions is certainly not befitting.

 

[Tom Butler]

Repentance is part of faith. It is not a work apart from faith.

How can a person genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and not immediately repent of living out of harmony with His will? It is impossible.

A so-called "faith" that does not include repentance is not biblical, genuine faith.

I found it interesting that in Act 17, Paul's sermon on Mars Hill, his exhortation was "God commands you to repent." The response: "Some believed."

 

[lbaker]

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Who is the "he" that Christ is referring to? He is referring to himself: the Messiah, the second person of the triune Godhead, the Creator and sustainer of all things--God Almighty Himself. They rejected God in the flesh.

The "he" is not Allah. It is Christ, the second person of the triune Godhead, the God of the Bible. He is not Buddha, or Vishna, or Brahma, or any other number of false gods. He is Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith. If one does not believe in the right God, then one cannot have salvation.

Know what you believe; and know why you believe it.

In the original Greek there is no "he". Jesus is actually saying if you don't believe that "I AM" ...

All that stuff that JSM17 is saying about how the one true church has to look and behave a certain way is called Patternism, a concept that the more progressive coC churches reject.

 

[Stanedglass]

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Who is the "he" that Christ is referring to? He is referring to himself: the Messiah, the second person of the triune Godhead, the Creator and sustainer of all things--God Almighty Himself. They rejected God in the flesh.

The "he" is not Allah. It is Christ, the second person of the triune Godhead, the God of the Bible. He is not Buddha, or Vishna, or Brahma, or any other number of false gods. He is Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith. If one does not believe in the right God, then one cannot have salvation.

Know what you believe; and know why you believe it.

He is referring to "The I Am" as stated by someone else. He is referring to the Almighty God!

Jesus said I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)

DHK, now that we have that out of the way, please tell me where it says we have to beleive in the Trinity or a Triune Godhead.

The only thing you said before in all your post is that all we have to do is believe in Jesus and put our faith in him. Please show me where I must believe in the Trinity to be saved or to be a Christian!

I believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Am I a Christian? I have put my Complete faith in Jesus! According to that confession, am I a saved Christian?

 

[Stanedglass]

Repentance is part of faith. It is not a work apart from faith.

How can a person genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and not immediately repent of living out of harmony with His will? It is impossible.

A so-called "faith" that does not include repentance is not biblical, genuine faith.

Darron, I agree! Repentance is part of faith! We are commanded to Repent! Baptism is just as much a part of Faith as Repentance! We are commanded to be baptized as well!

Repentance is a result of Gods grace upon us! God does not repent for us. It's somthing we have to do our selves. Paul said in 2 Corth 7:10 that Godly Sorrow worketh Repentance! That means that God will convict us, but it depends on our obedience or Actions whether or not we will listen to Gods calling!

That's what happened on the Day of Pentecost. Peter preached Jesus to the people and how they cruesified him and the bible says "They were pricked in their heart".

Pricked means
1) to prick, pierce
2) metaph. to pain the mind sharply, agitate it vehemently
a) esp. of the emotion of sorrow

This is an example of Godly Sorrow! God opened their understanding and convicted them. Now that they believed in Jesus, they can Repent! They can now do THEIR Part! What shall WE DO

And Peter tells them Repent and...

 

[Darron Steele]

Darron, I agree! Repentance is part of faith! We are commanded to Repent! Baptism is just as much a part of Faith as Repentance!

I cannot accept that premise.

A person repents the moment that s/he genuinely believes that Jesus Christ is Lord.

One cannot be baptized the same moment that we believe.

Therefore, baptism must be separate from faith.

We are commanded to be baptized as well! ...

Of course we are commanded to be baptized. I am not aware of anyone who has posted on this thread who would deny that Christians have a duty to be baptized.

 

[Stanedglass]

I cannot accept that premise.

A person repents the moment that s/he genuinely believes that Jesus Christ is Lord.

One cannot be baptized the same moment that we believe.

Therefore, baptism must be separate from faith.
Of course we are commanded to be baptized. I am not aware of anyone who has posted on this thread who would deny that Christians have a duty to be baptized.

I beg to differ! Act 2:37, they believed in Jesus prior to repenting! They believed then asked what must we do. Peter said Repent and be baptized...

I will challenge you to show me in the bible where we repent the moment we believe!

 

[Darron Steele]

I beg to differ! Act 2:37, they believed in Jesus prior to repenting! They believed then asked what must we do. Peter said Repent and be baptized...

I will challenge you to show me in the bible where we repent the moment we believe!

First you agree with me that repentance is part of faith.

Then you turn right around and disagree, holding that a person can be a believer without repenting.

Which is it? In your view, is repentance a part of faith, or not?

I do not have time for games. Pick your genuine position, and let me know.

 

[DHK]

He is referring to "The I Am" as stated by someone else. He is referring to the Almighty God!

Who is the Almighty God?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Do you understand who God is; who Christ is? If you don't know who Christ is, then how do you know that you are believing in the right "Christ"?
Sun Myung Moon claims to be Jesus Christ. Did you put your faith in him?
How do you or we know? Unless Christ is defined by the Bible (as the second person of the trinity), as the one that you have put your faith in, then perhaps you have put your faith in a false Christ, perhaps it is in Mr. Moon himself??

Jesus said I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)

I have heard others New Agers claim the same thing, but they don't claim that they are the second person of the trinity. Do you know who Christ is or not? Who have you put your trust in: a false Christ or the Christ of the Bible. Who did Jews trust when the rejected Christ?

DHK, now that we have that out of the way, please tell me where it says we have to beleive in the Trinity or a Triune Godhead.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The only thing you said before in all your post is that all we have to do is believe in Jesus and put our faith in him. Please show me where I must believe in the Trinity to be saved or to be a Christian!

If you do not believe that Christ is the second person of the triune Godhead then you do not believe in the Christ of the Bible. If you do not believe in the Christ of the Bible, then you do not believe in Christ at all.

I believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Am I a Christian?

I don't know. That is between you and God. I was a Catholic for 20 years; not saved. I believed in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but was not a Christian. "The devils believe and tremble."

I have put my Complete faith in Jesus! According to that confession, am I a saved Christian?

A Muslim puts his complete faith in Allah. According to that confession, is he saved? If your "Jesus" is not the Jesus of the Bible he is only as good as the Allah of Islam, and cannot save anyone.

 

[lbaker]

First you agree with me that repentance is part of faith.

Then you turn right around and disagree, holding that a person can be a believer without repenting.

Which is it? In your view, is repentance a part of faith, or not?

I do not have time for games. Pick your genuine position, and let me know.

I think the point is that WE repent, WE do the repenting, regardless of whether or not it is instantaneous when we believe, or a few seconds later, or days or weeks later. It is still something that WE do, just like being immersed. Both are responses from faith, or faith in action.

 

[Stanedglass]

First you agree with me that repentance is part of faith.

Then you turn right around and disagree, holding that a person can be a believer without repenting.

Which is it? In your view, is repentance a part of faith, or not?

I do not have time for games. Pick your genuine position, and let me know.

Repentance is part of faith, I do not disagree with you there. If you reread my post it should be clear of what I'm trying to say.

What I begged to differ was that you said a person repents The Moment they believe. That is what I was disagreeing with.

No one is playing games. My genuine position is this so there is no room for ambiguity. I believe that Repentance is an Act of Faith. However, I do not believe a person has repented just because he believes. Repentance is a seperate experience from believing!

 

[Darron Steele]

Repentance is part of faith, I do not disagree with you there. If you reread my post it should be clear of what I'm trying to say.

What I begged to differ was that you said a person repents The Moment they believe. That is what I was disagreeing with.

You are still talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

You first agreed with me that repentance is part of faith, that faith includes repentance.

Then you turned right around and claimed that a person can believe without having repented. Hence, faith does not include repentance.

I think you finally decided on a position. Emphasis mine:

No one is playing games. My genuine position is this so there is no room for ambiguity. I believe that Repentance is an Act of Faith. However, I do not believe a person has repented just because he believes. Repentance is a seperate experience from believing!

I will take that as your real position.

Hence, your real position is that faith does not include repentance.

It also boggles my mind that you hold it. How anyone can assert that a person can truly believe that Jesus Christ is Lord without having repented of living out of harmony with His will is beyond me.

I mean, if a person still thinks s/he can live out of harmony with His will if s/he wishes, there is no way that s/he really believes He is Lord. Without repentance, there is no faith on Jesus Christ, and the person is NOT a believer.

Scripture knows of no such notion: "believers" who still think they can live out of harmony with His will. In Scripture, all "believers" were people who had submitted their lives to be followers of Jesus Christ.

So it is amazing to me that anyone will talk about repentance as a separate thing from faith.

 

[Stanedglass]

Who is the Almighty God?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Do you understand who God is; who Christ is? If you don't know who Christ is, then how do you know that you are believing in the right "Christ"?
Sun Myung Moon claims to be Jesus Christ. Did you put your faith in him?
How do you or we know? Unless Christ is defined by the Bible (as the second person of the trinity), as the one that you have put your faith in, then perhaps you have put your faith in a false Christ, perhaps it is in Mr. Moon himself??

I understand who God is. I'm not sure how you can even think that I do not understand who he is or who I have put my complete trust in.

I do not believe in Sun Myung Moon, I believe in the Jesus Christ of the New Testament. The one who died, was buried and raised from the dead.

DHK, you refuse to show me where we must believe in the Trinity though. Show me where it says we have to believe that he is the 2nd person to be saved.

The only thing that I'm told to believe is that he is the I AM.

Please answer my question! Does the bible specifically say we have to beleive in the Trinity to be saved or to be a Christian? Yes or NO! Please don't throw back questions trying to answer my question.

I have heard others New Agers claim the same thing, but they don't claim that they are the second person of the trinity. Do you know who Christ is or not? Who have you put your trust in: a false Christ or the Christ of the Bible. Who did Jews trust when the rejected Christ?

Yes, I know the real one! As I stated before! The one that was dead, buried and raised again, Jesus. That literally means, Jehovah has become Salvation!

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

I'm not argueing the fact if there is a Trinity or not. You said that we MUST believe in the Trinity! John 5:7 is an awesome verse! But again here it never says we have to believe in a Trinity! If you want to apply the word Trinity to this, that's your prerogative! But please don't say it's bible doctrine.

Technacally speaking, if the 3 are 1 if I beleive in Jesus, I believe in the Father, If I beleive in Jesus, I believe in the Spirit, If I beleive in the Spirit I believe in the Father, and the word! John 14:23 beautifully says that if we Love Jesus we will keep his words. IF we keep his words the Father Loves us and would come and make their abode in us!

If we believe in Jesus, we believe in the Father already! If we do not beleive in Jesus we have rejected the Father! Mar 9:37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. When we recieve Jesus, we really receive the Father!

But again please answer my question with a simple yes or no. Does the bible say that we must believe in the Trinity to be saved or to be considered a Christian.

If you do not believe that Christ is the second person of the triune Godhead then you do not believe in the Christ of the Bible. If you do not believe in the Christ of the Bible, then you do not believe in Christ at all.

This is your opinion no what the bible says. It never says that we must believe that he is the 2nd. We must believe however that he is the Almighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace...(Isa 9:6)

Again I will ask for a simple yes/no answer. Does the bible specifically say that we must beleive that he is the second person!

I don't know. That is between you and God. I was a Catholic for 20 years; not saved. I believed in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but was not a Christian. "The devils believe and tremble."

A Muslim puts his complete faith in Allah. According to that confession, is he saved? If your "Jesus" is not the Jesus of the Bible he is only as good as the Allah of Islam, and cannot save anyone.

According to the way you have stated in previous topics is that if you beleive in Jesus Christ, (the one who died, was buried, and rose from the dead) and put your complete trust in him and that there is nothing more or less that someone can do then they are saved.

DHK, I have done this. I was even baptized to show that I did this. It was an outward confession of my faith (I beleive that's your reason for baptisim). I would say according to you, I'm saved.

According to what I have confessed. Am I a saved Christian?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Sun Myung Moon?! This thread is just getting ridiculous...

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

Sun Myung Moon?! This thread is just getting ridiculous...

In XC
-

Perhaps you may consider that an extreme example. But in the light of the fact that we are living in the last days, what exactly did Jesus mean when he said:

Matthew 24:23-24 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The Bible teaches that Christ is the second person of the triune Godhead. If one is putting their trust in some other Christ, then is he saved?

 

[DHK]

According to the way you have stated in previous topics is that if you beleive in Jesus Christ, (the one who died, was buried, and rose from the dead) and put your complete trust in him and that there is nothing more or less that someone can do then they are saved.

DHK, I have done this. I was even baptized to show that I did this. It was an outward confession of my faith (I beleive that's your reason for baptisim). I would say according to you, I'm saved.

According to what I have confessed. Am I a saved Christian?

If the Christ that you put your faith in is not the second person of the triune Godhead you tell me how you can be saved. That kind of "Christ" is a false Christ, and that gospel, according to Paul is an other gospel, and the person that preaches it is "accursed." (Gal.1:6-8)