JustChristian
New Member
TCGreek said:
But both views are supported inn the Bible until you start twisting the meaning of scripture that is. I believe that both election and free will are correct.
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Can predestination and free will both exist?
- Thread starter rpniman
- Start date
But both views are supported inn the Bible until you start twisting the meaning of scripture that is. I believe that both election and free will are correct.
Yes, but most Calvinists when they hear the term 'free-will' immediately think of it as 'libertarian free-will'. It does not have the same meaning today among non-cals, it is just that many Calvinists haven't caught on. Much like Calvinism isn't the same today as it was in the 1600 or 1700's and in fact many Calvinists today would probably be excomunicated from their churches. It has changed over the years as has the Non-Cal position.BaptistBeliever said:
But it is for this reason I do not like to use the term free-will around my Calvinistic brothers to often but use the phrase Responsibility of Man because their understanding of that comes closer to exemplifing my meaning. (with a small difference if course)
Jarthur001
Active Member
Allan said:
Its the word FREE we don't like. Will....yes....but not free.
If my will was free, I would be able to play hoops like LeBron James, not like James the Calvinist
LoL. 'Will' is not the same thing as 'Skill' James.Jarthur001 said:
Both you AND LeBron can choose to play hoops. As a matter of fact even now you CAN quit your job, and work on your hoops to maybe one day be as good as Lebron. You are 'free' to do that, So why don't you? Because you accept the truth that you will not get to be as good as LeBron and therefore you would die of starvation :smilewinkgrin: . So you ARE able to play hoops 'like' LeBron (thus Free will/ability) but you do not have the SKILL LeBron has in playing them. However the term 'free' is (or at least should be) directly proportionate to those choices God has placed in the life of every person individually. We are only 'free' to choose within the frame of those choices God gives to us - Thus Responsiblity (of Man). The only choices we have are those given to us by God.
Can one choose to actaully become a bear?
Can one choose to actaully BE LeBron?
The answer is 'no'. Why? Because neither is possible or better you are unable to literally become either and therefore it is not a matter of choice. IOW - there is no choice because there is no ability and therefore if one is not able one is not resposible to be that which they are not. No matter how bad one might want to become LeBron it will never happen because you do not have any ability to that end. But what IS possible or what you have the 'ability' to do is play hoops just as LeBron does. Choice can only be possible if it can be done and if it 'can be done' then it is within your sphere of ability to do it. It is on this basis of ability that one can and is held resposible for their choice/actions.
Now if someone created a legal way to transform you into the actaul LeBron and gave you the option of receiving it. It would only be then that you would be 'free' to be LeBron because the choice is now given to you, by the scientist who being able to do it, has enabled you to now choose by giving you the choice. But... just because people have the ability now to become LeBron, does not mean that everyone will choose to be him.
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Dr. L.T. Ketchum
New Member
Amen Brother Allen!Allan said:
Jarthur001
Active Member
Allan said:
Allan,
I have played B-ball all my life. I played at a high level. At this point I could drop a few names that would make you open your eyes wide....that is if you like basketball. I can compete ...or I should say I could compete with nearly anyone. I'll be 50 years old next year. SIDE NOTE: I just have fallen in love with a young lady....though I still love my wife. Maybe I should add, that young lady is my 1st grand child. I have pictures if you want to see.
Anyway, 3 years ago I was still playing in the "college level" tournaments. The last tournament I played I was 3rd highest scorer with all of the top scores still playing Div ll college level. I'm a old man to them.
I do love that game. About 15 years ago, I was player against the likes of Tom Chambers. I could not stop Tom, but he didn't stop me either.I say all this to say..I had the desire..or will...to be the best. I was at the top of my game when I played. My willpower would never let me be at the very TOP level. Yes I can compete, but I would never be a PRO. I gave it my all and played many times a week. I played 3 mornings a week at 5:30am year around for years, and then I played tournaments on weekends. My heart, my desire, my will was to be the best. I was never close to being LeBron James.
Like wise, I love the fact you used the word "ability". Free-willers hid from that word. Non-Calvinist sometime use it. Calvinist, as you well know, use this word for their doctrine.
Man has NO ability to choose God. God must make him able.
I'm able to do good things, but not able to see I need God, till God opens my eyes.
I'm able to hear words of God, but not able to understand, till God opens my understanding.
For me to be like Lebron, God must be at work.
I am ABLE to do many things but my ability is LIMITED not free. My WILL can do many things, but it too is limited.
I do agree with this one line.
There is such a One. God can do this. But being that HE CHOSE not to have me like LeBron, I am who He made me. It is not my choice but Gods.
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Your still confusing 'will' with skill. But in any case - You can no more will yourself to be the best B-Ball player the world has ever seen, anymore than a person can will themselves to saved. The person in both instances can not actaully DO that which is beyond their ability. However, they can desire or will beyond what they themselves can do toward that which another can do for them. This is what I believe the passage in John 1 means with regard to vs 13. Man can be saved by their blood line. Man can not be saved by their works (flesh). And man can not be saved by shear determination. Salvation is something God gives to those who believe (vs 12)Jarthur001 said:Allan,
I have played B-ball all my life. I played at a high level. At this point I could drop a few names that would make you open your eyes wide....that is if you like basketball. I can compete ...or I should say I could compete with nearly anyone. I'll be 50 years old next year. SIDE NOTE: I just have fallen in love with a young lady....though I still love my wife. Maybe I should add, that young lady is my 1st grand child. I have pictures if you want to see.
Anyway, 3 years ago I was still playing in the "college level" tournaments. The last tournament I played I was 3rd highest scorer with all of the top scores still playing Div ll college level. I'm a old man to them.
I say all this to say..I had the desire..or will...to be the best. I was at the top of my game when I played. My willpower would never let me be at the very TOP level. Yes I can compete, but I would never be a PRO. I gave it my all and played many times a week. I played 3 mornings a week at 5:30am year around for years, and then I played tournaments on weekends. My heart, my desire, my will was to be the best. I was never close to being LeBron James.
Like wise, I love the fact you used the word "ability". Free-willers hid from that word. Non-Calvinist sometime use it. Calvinist, as you well know, use this word for their doctrine.
Man has NO ability to choose God. God must make him able.
I'm able to do good things, but not able to see I need God, till God opens my eyes.
I'm able to hear words of God, but not able to understand, till God opens my understanding.
For me to be like Lebron, God must be at work.
I do agree with this one line.
There is such a One. God can do this. But being that HE CHOSE not to have me like LeBron, I am who He made me. It is not my choice but Gods.
Your contention that "Man has NO ability to choose God" is one not based on any scriptural support but upon a presupposition of what 'dead in sin' is supposed to mean. It is scriptural that Man will not seek after God (if left to himself), and that Man can not do any good works of or for meritorious or salvic means. Scripture also states that man can not know any spiritual truth (if left to himself).
The only way man has 'NO' ability to choose God, is if God never revealed ANY truth to man at all but left him alone in his sin, thereby giving man no choice and if there is no choice there is no ability to choose anything. That is the one way man has NO ability to choose, much less choose God.
However, we know that this is not what God has done. As a matter of fact we see scripture speaking directly to the contrary of your statement in such example passages as:
John 1:7-9, Prov 1:20-33, Rom 1:18-31, and 2 Thes 2:10-12. Or the parables like Larzarus and the Rich man, Wedding feast and also Jesus speaking to the Rich young Ruler.
And the whole thing about 'ability' - WHAT??
Non-Cals use the term 'ability' all the time because it is part of their very doctrine.
Man is Responsible BECAUSE he is able.
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Does this not smack of God "electing" to salvation IN SPITE OF CHRIST rather than "through" or "in" Christ? You are obviously saying that God has some sort of "mind control" over those He chooses to save such that they will believe on Christ as the reason they are saved when, in fact, it is God's "election"/choosing them which saves.Tom Butler said:
skypair
saturneptune
New Member
Now that would be a cute trick, since Scripture says the only thing good is God. In our sinful state, how would anyone choose good? You might choose something you think is good in your opinion. Without the gift of God called faith and a calling, you would not choose Him. Your premise is quite flawed, and that if ever sunk in, the Calvinist threads ad nauseum would radically decrease.skypair said:
The presumption that God must 'give' each individual person 'faith' as if it is something they do not have, is and always has been highly debated. If one believes faith is some mysterious 'thing' given by God and just hanging out till it is used, holds no biblical nor logical water.saturneptune said:
All mankind has the ability for faith in Christ but not all men will be of faith toward Christ. Faith is either a noun or a verb. So it is either an object/person (like Christ) to which we submit, or it is an action of obedience (again submission) toward that object. In this case the only action of obedience is to believe. It is not something that needs to be given when we ALREADY posses the ability to have faith in manner of other things.
saturneptune said:
The 3rd Article of the Remonstrance cites:
That man could not obtain saving faith of himself of by the strength of his own free will, but stood in need of God's grace through Christ to be renewed in thought and will (John xv.5).
It is not within the teachings of Classic Arminianism such Palgianism and Calvinists do grave harm to truth to suggest otherwise.
JustChristian
New Member
bound said:
Arminianism, like Calvinism, is simply someone's system of theology. It's not the Bible. I think we'd all be better off to simply turn our back on both of them and pick up our Bibles.
BaptistBeliever said:
Both are two forks on the same road of a systematic study of the Scriptures. They are not separate from the Scriptures nor are the Scriptures separate from Theology. One is the Systematic Study of the other. To discard one is to be in ignorance of what those who came before us through faithful and prayerful labor passed down to us for our own good. It was for our own benefit that such men labored their whole lives in dutiful service to the mastery of God's Word. It is to our betterment and to their honor that we ponder faithfully and prayerfully what has been generously given. With God's help we shall continue humily and with all convinction that good work to the Salvation of souls.
Jarthur001
Active Member
bound said:
I agree. We all have our views and will lean one way or another. However, ignorance is never the right answer. If you view the "other side" as error, this will only cause you to get into the Word more and find the truth. We should never run from error, but stand against it. What we do here, should make each of us stronger no matter what side you are on.
Remember, most theology systems are based on what they saw as error by another. The only reason we have the 5 points of either side is that the other side saw error in teaching. This can be found in each age of the church as new theology was writtten.
JustChristian
New Member
bound said:
I believe that it is helpful to consider the thinking of various theologians in determining our own belief system. However, ultimately it is each believer's responsibility to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling." Too many times we get caught up in debating the fine points presented by one school of theology or another rather than living the Christian life.
BaptistBeliever said:
No argument here. Yes, it gets old and fast but with patience and God's continuing grace pouring on us and those around us we can enter into the peace of Christ and the unity found between Him and the Father. I know it's difficult and the divisiveness of the polemics but if we just had the patience to reflect deeply I believe we will see that the Scriptures demand us to recognize the presence of these two principles active in God's Plan of Salvation.
BaptistBeliever said:
No argument here. Yes, it gets old and fast but with patience and God's continuing grace pouring on us and those around us we can enter into the peace of Christ and the unity found between Him and the Father. I know it's difficult and the divisiveness of the polemics but if we just had the patience to reflect deeply I believe we will see that the Scriptures demand us to recognize the presence of these two principles active in God's Plan of Salvation.
How did you choose to get married? How did you choose to do the best you could raising your kids? Are these "good" things? Sure they are! And you likely chose them on account of the good outcome you expect -- it's called "hope." And that is why you will either choose God or reject Him.saturneptune said:
Apparently, in your opinion then, what you just said you think is good. What is the "gift of God" you are talking about? How do you know you were so gifted and not, instead, gifted by reading a good book on Calvinism?
Do you see that, if election to salvation is totally God's choice, then Christ's sacrifice is of no consequence? You can say you chose Christ all day and all night but that is mere deceit on your part. You are saved by God's choosing you "from the foundation of the earth," period.
Someone's premise is quite flawed. But I'd rather depend on scripture than have confidence in some men's opinion of what they say, Psa 118:8.
skypair