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Can the unsaved to good works?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Dale-c, Jul 12, 2006.

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  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You don't believe God is infinite?
    He is there when it happens. Do you believe that God is everywhere?
     
    #41 Brother Bob, Jul 13, 2006
  2. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Quick question, do you believe God is incapable os saving a man that will not believe?
     
    #42 Dale-c, Jul 13, 2006
  3. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    God can do anything He wants He is Omnipotent. Does He save the unbeliever NO! You must believe.
     
    #43 Brother Bob, Jul 13, 2006
  4. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    What? I don't know about you but He DID save this unbeliever!

    For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
    (Luke 19:10)

    Doesn't say came to hope to pursuade to believe that which I hope will believe now does it?
     
    #44 Dale-c, Jul 13, 2006
  5. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    So, salvation is mostly of God, a little bit of man?
     
    #45 Dale-c, Jul 13, 2006
  6. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    The believing is of Man and God knows when you believe. You think God believes for you? Now Salvation is of God. You can believe and still not be saved until God saves you. If God believes for you then why did He say "you must believe".

    As in time, and all that exist in time, it is all present with God at all time. He see at all time what is, and what was, and what will be when we are called to Heaven.

    Hbr 11:6But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    __________________
     
    #46 Brother Bob, Jul 13, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2006
  7. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Ahh, but God does not believe for us. In Fact, belief is required for salvation.
    But, can God change the heart of someone so that he does believe?
    If He can change the heart, does He?

    Or, is the will of man beyond the power of God? Can God not change the will of man?
     
    #47 Dale-c, Jul 13, 2006
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    God gave man a choice and saw in all time as in human means whether we chose good or evil. You believe in the pre-chosen or at least I think you do but don't want to put words in your mouth. But if you do then you believe you were with God in His eyes before the world began well if you were there before the world began then your whole life was also and He saw whether you believed or not. Now before the world began is the same as now with God and the same as the end of time so He is looking at your entire life right now, even that which has not happened yet and knows what you are going to do for He is already there.
     
    #48 Brother Bob, Jul 13, 2006
  9. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    We really aren't getting anywhere, I know exactly what you believe, I used to believe the same way.

    That was before I studied it for myself.

    Yes, I believe in a "prechosen" if that is how you want to put it.
    I believe that because the Bible says so.
    What does "pre-chosen" mean?

    Well, we know that pre means before, and we know what choose means, and we were chosen in Him before the foundations of the world,

    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    (Ephesians 1:4)

    I know, I know you are going to say...we were chosen to be holy etc....of course! But it is WE the elect that was chosen. Not of any good of our own. Not because we did ANYTHING to merit that saving grace.
    God does not choose those who choose Him, we choose Him because He Chose us.
    And therein lies the problem between us, you believe (correct me if I misrepresent you) that God chooses those who choose Him first, I believe that we Choose God becayse He has first chosen us, is that an accurate view of your belief?
     
    #49 Dale-c, Jul 13, 2006
  10. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Hey, I missed this post. I think we already covered it though.
    I just didn't want you to think that I had ignored you.

    Yes, I do believe that God is everywhere.

    Sometimes I think we post at the same time.
    Makes it confusing! :)
     
    #50 Dale-c, Jul 13, 2006
  11. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    The word "good" is a very special word in the Bible that describes one of the many attributes of God. Today, we use the word for meanings for all sorts of worldly things. "That food was really good." "Good job" "Good movie" etc. Maybe its something that is off base, but since I read that verse Matt 19:17 years ago, I try to be careful how I use this word.

    Getting back to the op, man without Christ can do no good work, in fact, with Christ, the good work is from His righteousness, and the credit or glory belongs to God.
     
    #51 saturneptune, Jul 13, 2006
  12. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Can't you see if God is infinite then those scriptures are in man's terms or understand. Man has to look forward but to God there is no forward or backward, He sees it all at once.

    As in time, and all that exist in time, it is all present with God at all time. He see at all time what is, and what was, and what will be when we are called to Heaven.
     
    #52 Brother Bob, Jul 13, 2006
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    All I know is what says the Scripture:

    Hbr 11:6But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Now I believe God's Spirit strives with man but I believe that means all men and have Scripture to prove it, as in "The Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men etc".

    God Bless you Satuneptune, you are indeed a friend. I am looking for something to happen and if it does I won't be back so God be with you.
     
    #53 Brother Bob, Jul 13, 2006
  14. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Bob, thanks for that, as you are a good friend. Where are you going?
     
    #54 saturneptune, Jul 13, 2006
  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I hope no where, depends on this board.
     
    #55 Brother Bob, Jul 13, 2006
  16. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Yes, faith is also required but where we disagree is where does the faith come from? It is the gift of God.

    We actually mostly agree here Bob, but there is this one little thing that aint so little.
    It is the active vs passive question.

    You say, God knows all because He sees all but He is not the cause. (passive)
    I say God knows all because He because He causes all things,. (He is active)

    Is that a good summery of what we both believe? Do you understand what I am saying?

    BTW, man can sin on His own, but God can restrain sinful man at anytime according to His will.
     
    #56 Dale-c, Jul 13, 2006
  17. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Didn't mean to ignore you saturn, Good post.
     
    #57 Dale-c, Jul 13, 2006
  18. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Yes, I understand you and if God can restrain man from sinning then He also can give him a choice. God give man enough faith to believe there is a God but He forces no man to accept Him. He gives you the choice to accept or reject the same as in the Garden, Adam had the tree of Life and the tree of knowledge and evil. He chose evil.

    God knows whether you will believe or not but does not force you to.
     
    #58 Brother Bob, Jul 13, 2006
  19. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    No, He doesn't force, He changed the heart so it is a heart of flesh rather than stone.
    We freely choose God, but only after He opens our eyes to see the truth.

    With the way you believe, God has given up His power as the ultimate sovereign in mans salvation.
    Man becomes the sovereign in salvation.
    If man is sovereign in salvation, then man is sovereign in the outcome of pratically all things on earth because ten God can't make anyone do His will.

    Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
    (John 17:24)


    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    (Ephesians 1:4)


    BTW, thanks for keeping this a good civil conversation. I am trying hard not to "rub you the wrong way" and keep this on the topic alone.
     
    #59 Dale-c, Jul 13, 2006
  20. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Dale,
    In Hebrews 11, there are several examples of those in the Old Testement that were saved by "faith and counted as righteouness" looking forward to the cross. Listed are Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Issac, Jacob and others. This is just speculation, but what do you think happened to Adam?
     
    #60 saturneptune, Jul 13, 2006
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