Can you prove by Scripture

[MB]

I don't suppose you have ever heard or encountered someone with Stockholm syndrome?
Stockholm syndrome, psychological response wherein a captive begins to identify closely with his or her captors, as well as with their agenda and demands. (Encyclopedia Britannica)

Stockholm syndrome so everyone get this from being confined against there will. This a legal term for set me free from Jail for the most part. Not to mention I do not believe in that Garbage either.

When you here someone say, "I'll see you in hell," that is a verbal indication of what binds the will. The will of the unbeliever from birth is conditioned to lie, cheat, steal, That is the worldly nature that serves the master - the god of this world.

This is just your theory none of what you have said here proves anything.

All unbelievers are enslaved to the worldly nature. As such they may choose from what God has provided as a general blessing to all humanity, however, there is no indication in Scripture that a slave merely by their will ever achieved freedom of the will, but were continuously submissive to the master of their life. All unbelievers are ungodly, and as such they are the subjects of the god of this world. Christ even calls unbelievers servants of the devil, or their father is the devil..

This may be what you believe but I disagree. Anyone can leave slavery. Many have and many still do. Simply by there freewill.

The slavery to sin is unbreakable unless the person has the Holy Spirit and the washing and renewal of the Mind by the Word of God, just as I posted. Such is not found in the unbeliever. They may certainly quit some bad habit, or try to reform some in some manner, but as the Christ said, "Even you (unbelievers) know how to give good gifts." The question is not what is "good" but what is both the "good and perfect" that only comes from Heaven.

Slavery is very breakable. Just look at all the slaves that use to be in America.Look to those slaves for there out standing freedom of there own will. You haven't got a leg to stand on. You haven't proven anything

The believer is perfected in Christ, yet still the old nature (old will) would try to usurp the New Nature (as Paul stated the need to die daily to this world) in attempts to corrupt the testimony of the Christian. Often such does in fact happen which is why the letters to the various churches encourage folks to life for Christ and to put off the old ways of life. The believer has the true freedom of choice unavailable to the unbeliever.

Absolute nonsense.

MB, I would recommend you read from the link I provided in an above post to a writing by Johnathan Edwards.
He was a brilliant theologian, and although he writes at a very high level of comprehension (for he was addressing famous philosopers and their corrupt philosophies that are even propagated to this day) perhaps you might find it instructive to understanding. Not everyone has the reading level to work totally through what Johnathan Edwards presents, for he is extremely tedious as he attacks each philosophy on multiple fronts and destroys them .

Johnathan Edwards is recognized as the greatest theologian of colonial America, He entered Yale at 13 years old and graduated in two years. Like I said the man was brilliant. He also put feet to his salvation by not only being a past or but at the same time was working as one of the earliest missionaries to the native Americans.

However, as great as he was, he and I would disagree on the matter of eschatology.

Don't you know that reading such materials just indoctrinates you deeper into Calvinism. I'm not interested in the writings of men What men think does not impress me. Especially on spiritual matters. The Bible is all I need and they disagree with Mr Edwards
MB

 

[Silverhair]

God's will is perfect. Any change in His decree would be to imperfection ruling out His free will. In this, He determined our choices, (part of his eternal plan, or as He says, "the end from the beginning") so neither do we have free will.

“Remember the former things of old: For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times the things that are not yet done, Saying, My counsel shall stand, And I will do all my pleasure:” Isaiah 46:9–10 (KJV 1900)

God knowing what is going to happen does not in any way cause all things to happen. If you hold onto that idea then you have to place the responsibility for all sin on God.
Think through what you are holding to. Your determinism is your big problem. You have to have God determine everything then you have to jump through hoops of your own making to save Him from the position that you put Him in.
God has a plan and His plan will be fulfilled. He just does not need your determinism to accomplish His plan.

 

[Dave G]

I must admit I have never found such a depressing lot as many of the people on here are. You would rather have yourselves be robots than have a free will.

The Bible does not teach that man's will is free and unbiased.
It just isn't there.
If you can find it, please post the Scriptures that tell us this.

However, I've looked and I can find nothing that tells me that man is actually willing to heed the commands of our Creator, unless it's for selfish reasons such as agreeing to anything to save one's life;
Only to go back on our word and back into disobeying Him once the "heat" is off.

Do you consider yourselves so incapable of making a rational choice that you need God to make it for you?

We as men make rational choices every day.
We don't need the Lord's help to do that.

But, we do need Him to change our hearts and minds when it comes to desiring sin, and the pleasures of it.

 

[Dave G]

Do you really think that God could not give man the ability to make a choice about their own salvation when the choice is given to them?

Sure I do.
But it seems that you believe that God has indeed given men a choice of whether or not to believe on Christ.
Would you please list those passages for the benefit of the reader?

According to the Scriptures and the way that I understand them, given the choice, we would not choose to repent and believe.
It would require giving up that which we love, and approaching Who we hate in true and genuine repentance and reconciliation.

Try reading all of scripture not just what you think supports your view.

That's exactly what I do, but I thank you for the encouragement just the same.

God gave man a brain and He expects us to use them.

Respectfully, intellect has nothing to do with obeying the Lord.
The matter comes down to willingness on our part.

But all that I see coming from here is people saying well I am just to dumb to make a choice so I will just have to hope that I am one of the lucky ones that got chosen.

I'm sorry, but from my perspective it seems that you've misunderstood what's being presented, especially the Scriptures that are involved.

I suggest this...Begin at Romans 1:18-32.
Keep going to Romans 2, then Romans 3.
By the time you hit the end of Romans 3, I think you should have enough information to see how mankind really treats the Lord apart from His "waking us up".

Being "dumb" has nothing to do with our sinful and rebellious attitude...
Being naturally resistant to Him and His words, is our problem.

 

[Dave G]

But I really won't know until I stand at judgment.

I cannot speak for anyone else here, but I already know.
I will stand on the Lord Jesus' right hand ( Matthew 25:31-46 ) at the Judgment...not by my choice, but because of God's choice;
As will anyone who truly believes on Christ Jesus.

Stop trying to find that one verse that you think helps you prove your point. Look at all of scripture.

I've been doing that since the Lord called me by His grace, and much more the past 20 years or so.
I can find nothing, in its proper context, that contradicts what the so-called "Calvinist" calls, "Total Depravity".

I came on this board expecting to deal with people that trusted scripture but what I have found is people that just post the same old canards.

I'm sorry that you feel that way.
What I can say is, "I do indeed trust the Scriptures...each and every word."

Do you believe every word in that precious book?
I hope so, my friend.

I do not care if you want to be a Calvinist or and Arminian as long as you are truthful in how you deal with scripture.

Again, I cannot speak for anyone else on this board, but if you'd like to go through a few passages line by line and verse by verse,
I'd be more than happy to tell you how I see them.

Problem is that I have found more twisting of scripture here than I did when I did outreach with street kids.

I'm sorry to see this.
Perhaps you would clarify where you see the Scriptures being twisted, by quoting a passage where you see this being done...at least for my benefit.

I fully expect this to cause a flame war but be that as it may. This had to be said.

You'll get no "flame war" from me, sir.
That is not my purpose here.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair,


Not sure who you are referring to ?

As many times as you have been asked to actually look at your DoG and LBCF what I get is well it must be true because I believe it. Well if you can live with the DoG that makes you a puppet then so be it. Critical thinking must not be important to you. Even your LBCF or WCF which ever you think is best have so many contradictions and evasions in them it shows just how bad a man made text can be.
You said you read the post I did to Austin but you still do not see that God expects man to think. You want one that saves you before you believe and then drops faith into you so you can believe. Sad real sad.
You keep following your DoG and LBCF I will follow that Bible and Christ Jesus.

 

[Iconoclast]

Silverhair,

You are the ones that have made God a robot master, your determinism requires that

t.

God determines ...not us;
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Read your own LBCF or DoG and tell me that you can really make free will choices. You cannot. Your denial that man has a God given free will just shows your attachment to the Calvinist system.
Do you actually read what you write. before you post it.

You cling to the invented carnal philosophy of a will that is "free".
this is not a biblical teaching, it is carnal human philosophy of the natural man, who is not saved.

If your view of election and predestination were in fact biblical, but since that is not the case.

It is the case that you have not discovered yet.

All man are sinful: Rom_3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Man knows he is a sinner: Joh_16:8
"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

And in his state of sin and unbelief he stands condemned: Joh_3:18
he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/QUOTE]

Yes, okay...

He can only come to the Father [be saved] through belief in Jesus: Joh_14:6
Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and of course we no this also;
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Do you see...the Father draws them to the Son effectually , enabling them to believe

This is done by trusting in Jesus as Lord and Saviour: Rom_10:9, Rom_10:13
10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

For the man to come to faith in Christ, he has to be drawn: Joh_6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Yes, now you are getting the idea....

And all are being drawn: Joh_12:32
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

No...that is not what is being taught here at all.
All men ever born are not being drawn by the Father savingly here. It does not teach that.
It is teaching that as the gospel goes worldwide, it will be preached to all men, jew and gentile...

Those weight down by sin are invited to come: Mat_11:28
"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Such people are already being drawn by the Spirit....Jn 16;7

Jesus came to save the lost, the sinners: Luk_19:10; 1Ti_1:15
19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,

Jesus as the great shepherd seeks and saves each one of His sheep, EZK 34, luke 19...Jesus seeks and saves sinners, All that the Father gives to Him shall come to Him.
Yes they are sinners, but those given to Him in the Covenant of Redemption.

The gospel message is used to draw people: Eph_1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:3-14 is one sentence in the Greek NT. it is the second-longest, behind Col 1:9-20.
So why do you ignore the whole first portion of the sentence? is it because you hate that God is God and He saves who He will? You and others would like to ignore and chop the sentence in half, or read it backwards from verse 13 down/

For the man who hears and learns will be drawn: Joh_6:45
"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Here you read backwards once again, no good SH, start at verse 37-45, just as it is written...

Salvation is available to all: Rom_2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

All men are responsible before God

The sacrifice Jesus made is for everyone: 1Jn_2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

God's children are scattered worldwide. Only the sins of the elect have been paid for, and propitiated

Can be applied to anyone: Rom_3:25 b, Rom_3:26
This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

This is to deny the Covenant nature of salvation that most Non cals do not take into account.

This is the heart of God, the salvation of man 1Ti_2:3-4
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God saves people worldwide.Every tribe, tongue , and nation.

The Father sent His son as saviour of the world: Joh_3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

There is no other saviour. Acts 4:12

 

[Iconoclast]

Silverhair,

As many times as you have been asked to actually look at your DoG and LBCF what I get is well it must be true because I believe it

.

Can you show any post where I said any such thing?? Post the post where I said that?

Well if you can live with the DoG that makes you a puppet then so be it.[/QUOTE]

This kind of ignorant comment shows you are not looking for truth. I took time to answer you and you repeat this rubbish?

Critical thinking must not be important to you

.

3 For what saith the scripture?

Even your LBCF or WCF which ever you think is best have so many contradictions and evasions in them it shows just how bad a man made text can be.

You cannot find one contradiction in the 1689...not one.

You said you read the post I did to Austin but you still do not see that God expects man to think. You want one that saves you before you believe and then drops faith into you so you can believe. Sad real sad.

God saves all He came to save. i started reading a bible to resist God, God saved me despite myself.
Belief is simultaneous with regeneration, death to life.

You keep following your DoG and LBCF I will follow that Bible and Christ Jesus.

You repeat such an ignorant comment as this, as if those men who compiled the 1689 do not follow the bible.
Your frustration is, that they forgot more bible than you will ever know. Those confessional members on here have no problem refuting your shallow protestations and that you find frustrating.

 

[agedman]

Stockholm syndrome so everyone get this from being confined against there will. This a legal term for set me free from Jail for the most part. Not to mention I do not believe in that Garbage either.

Have you not read that there is no freedom of the will with the unbeliever? They are enslaved to the boundaries this world offers. They have no ability to understand, nor care about the matters of eternity other than some emotional conjure in which changes them not.

Believers are free, for the Christ said, believers would be “free indeed.”

This is just your theory none of what you have said here proves anything.

Fine, where does the unbeliever get their language and vocalizations? From the heavens or from the earth?

This may be what you believe but I disagree. Anyone can leave slavery. Many have and many still do. Simply by there freewill.

Let’s see what the Scriptures teach about the person who attempts to reform yet has not the Holy Spirit.

43When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it passes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ On its return, it finds the house vacant, swept clean, and put in order. 45Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and dwell there; and the final plight of that man is worse than the first.
​

So was that person ever truly free?

Slavery is very breakable. Just look at all the slaves that use to be in America.Look to those slaves for there out standing freedom of there own will. You haven't got a leg to stand on. You haven't proven anything

slavery is broken in only one condition. That is at the proclamation of the salvation of an individual.
Look at this passage to see true freedom of the believer entails struggle with the old nature.

14For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am fleshly, having been sold under sin.15For what I do, I do not understand. For what I want, this I do not do; but what I hate, this I do. 16Now if that which I do not want, this I do, I consent to the Law, that it isgood. 17And in that case I am no longer doing it, but the sin dwelling in me.

18For I know that there dwells in me nothing good, that is, in my flesh. For to will is present with me, but not to do good. 19For the good that I desire, I do not do; but the evil that I do not want, this I practice. 20Now if what I do not want, I do this, it is no longer I who do it, but sin dwelling in me.

21So I find the principle in my desiring to do good, that evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man; 23but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and making me captive to the law of sin being in my members. 24O wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of this body of death? 25Thanks be then to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

So even the believer must realize there is nothing good in the flesh, it is SOLD under sin. Sold means no freedom does it not?

Absolute nonsense.

Perhaps now that I showed you the Scripture you will understand the principle I presented is not nonsense.

Don't you know that reading such materials just indoctrinates you deeper into Calvinism. I'm not interested in the writings of men What men think does not impress me. Especially on spiritual matters. The Bible is all I need and they disagree with Mr Edwards
MB

For someone who hasn’t read Edwards, you go back away from such indictment. I don’t puff up Edwards, Graduate students still study and marvel at the insights of that 13 year old student of Yale.

You claim to hold to Scriptures as your final authority, and that is as it should be for all believers.

Having the presented you the Scriptures in this post, I will wait to see if you then will modify your understanding or remain entrenched in a view that is frail.

 

[AustinC]

You are the ones that have made God a robot master, your determinism requires that.

This assertion is, of course, false and is a strawman that is illogical, yet you assert it without care.

Read your own LBCF or DoG and tell me that you can really make free will choices.

I don't use any of these as my guide. I use scripture alone. This is also another strawman of your own making.
So much of this discussion is you making up an argument that you then argue against. It's fascinating to watch you fight with yourself.

You cannot. Your denial that man has a God given free will just shows your attachment to the Calvinist system.

No one has argued that humans don't have a will or that, within the ordained will of God, they act on this will. You seem incapable of grasping the nuance between actions of the will that God allows verses actions of the will that cannot happen. Here's a simple example: A man can will himself to fly by simply flapping his arms. He is free to try. But, no man has the capacity to fly by simply flapping his arms. Therefore he has a will, but he has no freedom to will himself to fly. The will is confined.
So, a human can never will himself to choose God because the person in the flesh cannot do so. (Romans 8 & Ephesians 2)

Do you actually read what you write. before you post it.

Of course I do. You simply despise what I write.

>>The strawman is created that if humans do not have the capacity to choose their own actions, they therefore become robots of the one who acts as their master.<<

Correct, this is your strawman.

If man cannot chose anything

There is the strawman that no one argues.

[/QUOTE]then that requires that all things are directed by their master.[/QUOTE]
There is no then, because your "if" is a figment of your imagination.

In other words you can do nothing of your own free will so you are just a human robot.

I have shown you that your imagined assertion is only in your mind and nowhere else.

If your view of election and predestination were in fact biblical, but since that is not the case.

You mean the view presented in Romans 8-11 as well as Ephesians 1?
I can quote these passages once again for you. Will you still say the Bible isn't biblical? I don't even have to explain anything from these passages as they explain themselves. However, you work hard to explain them away to maintain your strawman philosophy about a free will never expressed anywhere in the Bible.

All man are sinful: Rom_3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Amen!

Man knows he is a sinner:

The law reveals this to a man. If a man knows not the law, they won't know they are sinners, but they will be guilty nonetheless.

Joh_16:8
"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

Amen

And in his state of sin and unbelief he stands condemned: Joh_3:18
he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Amen

He can only come to the Father [be saved] through belief in Jesus: Joh_14:6
Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Amen

This is done by trusting in Jesus as Lord and Saviour: Rom_10:9, Rom_10:13
10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Amen

For the man to come to faith in Christ, he has to be drawn: Joh_6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Amen. God must drag the person to himself.

And all are being drawn: Joh_12:32
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Here, you must either claim universalism or admit that a limited number of people from all nations, tribes and tongues are dragged in by God.

Those weight down by sin are invited to come: Mat_11:28
"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

And here is where you are doing the limiting so as to avoid universalism. You divide people by their own feelings about sin. I divide people by God's choice of persons who will know their sin and bow before God. God must drag them to have their sin revealed and cause them to know the weight of their sin.

You leave it to men to feel their own sinfulness apart from God.

Jesus came to save the lost, the sinners: Luk_19:10; 1Ti_1:15
19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,

Amen

The gospel message is used to draw people: Eph_1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Amen

For the man who hears and learns will be drawn: Joh_6:45
"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Jesus, here, tells you who will believe.

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

Salvation is available to all: Rom_2:4

Salvation is to be shared to all. It is only belied by those whom the Father has given to Jesus.

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Amen

The sacrifice Jesus made is for everyone: 1Jn_2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Here we will differ in our interpretation of what the "all" means.

If the all is universal, then every human would no longer be held guilty for their sins. Jesus would pay the ransom for their sins in full and God would have no justification for condemning anyone to hell. I wonder how you dance around that reality.

John is, however, telling his audience that Jesus is not only the propitiation for he and them, but for all in the world who believe. This is consistent with all the other verses that you have provided as well as what I have provided.

Silverhair, are you a proponent of universalism?

Can be applied to anyone: Rom_3:25 b, Rom_3:26
This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Amen!

This is the heart of God, the salvation of man 1Ti_2:3-4
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Is God's desire unable to be fulfilled because man's will is more powerful than God's desire?
Of course not. The context tells us how to understand this verse.

1 Timothy 2:1-6 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

We see that salvation isn't just for the poor or slaves or common workers. God will save from all types of people and it is God's desire to do so. This is why we pray for all people, as well as kings and those in high places. God saves kings as well as paupers.

The Father sent His son as saviour of the world: Joh_3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Amen, yet, only those who believe are saved. I already quoted you Jesus words from John 10. Jesus tells you that all whom the Father gives him will believe. Will you ignore Jesus words in order to maintain a position that is made of straw?

 

[tyndale1946]

Have you not read that there is no freedom of the will with the unbeliever? They are enslaved to the boundaries this world offers. They have no ability to understand, nor care about the matters of eternity other than some emotional conjure in which changes them not.

Believers are free, for the Christ said, believers would be “free indeed.”



Fine, where does the unbeliever get their language and vocalizations? From the heavens or from the earth?



Let’s see what the Scriptures teach about the person who attempts to reform yet has not the Holy Spirit.

43When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it passes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ On its return, it finds the house vacant, swept clean, and put in order. 45Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and dwell there; and the final plight of that man is worse than the first.
​

So was that person ever truly free?



slavery is broken in only one condition. That is at the proclamation of the salvation of an individual.
Look at this passage to see true freedom of the believer entails struggle with the old nature.

14For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am fleshly, having been sold under sin.15For what I do, I do not understand. For what I want, this I do not do; but what I hate, this I do. 16Now if that which I do not want, this I do, I consent to the Law, that it isgood. 17And in that case I am no longer doing it, but the sin dwelling in me.

18For I know that there dwells in me nothing good, that is, in my flesh. For to will is present with me, but not to do good. 19For the good that I desire, I do not do; but the evil that I do not want, this I practice. 20Now if what I do not want, I do this, it is no longer I who do it, but sin dwelling in me.

21So I find the principle in my desiring to do good, that evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man; 23but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and making me captive to the law of sin being in my members. 24O wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of this body of death? 25Thanks be then to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

So even the believer must realize there is nothing good in the flesh, it is SOLD under sin. Sold means no freedom does it not?


Perhaps now that I showed you the Scripture you will understand the principle I presented is not nonsense.



For someone who hasn’t read Edwards, you go back away from such indictment. I don’t puff up Edwards, Graduate students still study and marvel at the insights of that 13 year old student of Yale.

You claim to hold to Scriptures as your final authority, and that is as it should be for all believers.

Having the presented you the Scriptures in this post, I will wait to see if you then will modify your understanding or remain entrenched in a view that is frail.

I had my say on post #28... but speaking of Jonathan Edwards, my wife a retired English teacher of the public school system in Southern California, in their literature book that was required reading, was Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God... I guess you just can't keep God out of school... Brother Glen

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair,

.

Can you show any post where I said any such thing?? Post the post where I said that?

So you deny that you trust in your DoG & LBCF. Your posts say otherwise.

 

[Silverhair]

This assertion is, of course, false and is a strawman that is illogical, yet you assert it without care.

Amen, yet, only those who believe are saved. I already quoted you Jesus words from John 10. Jesus tells you that all whom the Father gives him will believe. Will you ignore Jesus words in order to maintain a position that is made of straw?

>>Here, you must either claim universalism or admit that a limited number of people from all nations, tribes and tongues are dragged in by God. <<

Nice of you to admit that your version of God has to drag people into heaven. That is not what the bible says but then you know that you just ignore it.
You seem quite content to ignore scripture and just hold on to your false view of God. Sorry but God will not fit into the little box you want to keep Him in. God loves the world and wants all to come to repentance, that is His desire for mankind. The reality is that not all will chose to accept the offer, that's biblical.
By your own words God has to drag people into heaven so they are not there because they love Him but because He forced them to be. Where do you get this twisted view because it sure is not in the bible.


Omni Argument Against Calvinism
1. If 5-point Calvinism (and “Irresistible Grace”) is true, then for any person X, if God desires to, has the power to, and knows how to cause X to go to Heaven and not suffer eternally in Hell, then X will go to Heaven and not suffer eternally in Hell.

2. If God is omnibenevolent {All-loving, or infinitely good}, omnipotent {is all-powerful}, and omniscient {seeing all or knowing all}, then for any person X, God desires to, has the power to, and knows how to cause X to go to Heaven and not suffer eternally in Hell.

3. There is at least one person who will not go to Heaven and suffer eternally in Hell.

4. Therefore, one cannot affirm both {1} that 5-point Calvinism is true and {2} that God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient.
It is intuitively obvious (a properly basic belief) and we simply know that good judges do not give death sentences to people as a punishment for crimes these individuals are not responsible for.

Paul affirms premise {2 above} in 1Ti_2:4 “[God] desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Therefore, if one affirms that God possesses His omni attributes maximally, and that 1Ti_2:4 is true, and that some people do suffer eternal Hell, then it logically follows that they must reject 5-point Calvinism.

1- If Calvinism is true, whomever God provides “irresistible grace” to will go to Heaven and not suffer eternal Hell.

2- If God is omnibenevolent, He would not desire to, nor would He, send anyone to suffer eternal Hell for choices they were powerless to make without God’s irresistible grace.

3- If God is omnipotent, he could provide irresistible grace to all people.

4- If God is omniscient, he would know how to provide irresistible grace to all people.

5- Some people suffer eternal Hell.

6- Therefore, either God is not omnibenevolent, or not omnipotent, or not omniscient (pick at least one), or irresistible grace (and Calvinism) is false.

 

[agedman]

Can you prove by Scripture that there is true freedom of the will?

Does not the Scripture state, “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

Does not the Scripture state, “But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.”

My own view is that God is the creator of parameters and establishes boundaries.

The unbeliever may know and give according to the boundaries established by God. One of those is that the heart (will) of the unbeliever is “desperately wicked. And in such a state of wickedness is slavery, not freedom.

Returning to the OP, I was reading in Ephesians and came across this in contrast to the believers walk.

…walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
​

How is it that there is “freedom of the will” when believers are contrasted with unbelievers in light of the Ephesians quote above?

understanding darkened
Vanity of their mind
Alienated from the life of God
Ignorance and blindness
Past feeling
Work all uncleanness, greediness

These are said to have freedom of the will?

No, for as is stated to believers in another passage, “such were some of you, but God …”

Without the core change that takes place in a believer is accomplished by God giving that person a new nature, making them a new creature created in Christ, there is and cannot be true freedom of the will.

 

[Iconoclast]

So you deny that you trust in your DoG & LBCF. Your posts say otherwise.

Not only did you not respond to the posts but now change your statement because I never said any such thing.you cannot show it because like your theology you made it up.
I never said the 1689 is true Because I. Believe it.

 

[Silverhair]

Not only did you not respond to the posts but now change your statement because I never said any such thing.you cannot show it because like your theology you made it up.
I never said the 1689 is true Because I. Believe it.

So you don't believe the LBCF or DoG. Good to know. So what do you believe?

 

[AustinC]

>>Here, you must either claim universalism or admit that a limited number of people from all nations, tribes and tongues are dragged in by God. <<

Nice of you to admit that your version of God has to drag people into heaven. That is not what the bible says but then you know that you just ignore it.
You seem quite content to ignore scripture and just hold on to your false view of God. Sorry but God will not fit into the little box you want to keep Him in. God loves the world and wants all to come to repentance, that is His desire for mankind. The reality is that not all will chose to accept the offer, that's biblical.
By your own words God has to drag people into heaven so they are not there because they love Him but because He forced them to be. Where do you get this twisted view because it sure is not in the bible.


Omni Argument Against Calvinism
1. If 5-point Calvinism (and “Irresistible Grace”) is true, then for any person X, if God desires to, has the power to, and knows how to cause X to go to Heaven and not suffer eternally in Hell, then X will go to Heaven and not suffer eternally in Hell.

2. If God is omnibenevolent {All-loving, or infinitely good}, omnipotent {is all-powerful}, and omniscient {seeing all or knowing all}, then for any person X, God desires to, has the power to, and knows how to cause X to go to Heaven and not suffer eternally in Hell.

3. There is at least one person who will not go to Heaven and suffer eternally in Hell.

4. Therefore, one cannot affirm both {1} that 5-point Calvinism is true and {2} that God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient.
It is intuitively obvious (a properly basic belief) and we simply know that good judges do not give death sentences to people as a punishment for crimes these individuals are not responsible for.

Paul affirms premise {2 above} in 1Ti_2:4 “[God] desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Therefore, if one affirms that God possesses His omni attributes maximally, and that 1Ti_2:4 is true, and that some people do suffer eternal Hell, then it logically follows that they must reject 5-point Calvinism.

1- If Calvinism is true, whomever God provides “irresistible grace” to will go to Heaven and not suffer eternal Hell.

2- If God is omnibenevolent, He would not desire to, nor would He, send anyone to suffer eternal Hell for choices they were powerless to make without God’s irresistible grace.

3- If God is omnipotent, he could provide irresistible grace to all people.

4- If God is omniscient, he would know how to provide irresistible grace to all people.

5- Some people suffer eternal Hell.

6- Therefore, either God is not omnibenevolent, or not omnipotent, or not omniscient (pick at least one), or irresistible grace (and Calvinism) is false.

It's simple to admit that the greek word used in John 6 that your English translation has as "draw" means "to drag." It is the idea of bringing water up from a well. The water doesn't go up the side of the well by its own choosing. It must have a bucket thrown down and then a force stronger than gravity must draw the water up out of the well. Thus the word "draw" in John 6 gives no room for free will choice, but instead conveys that the work is entirely God's doing when he draws people to himself.
Are you unaware of this fact, Silverhair? John 6 does not support your view at all.

 

[MB]

Have you not read that there is no freedom of the will with the unbeliever? They are enslaved to the boundaries this world offers. They have no ability to understand, nor care about the matters of eternity other than some emotional conjure in which changes them not.

Believers are free, for the Christ said, believers would be “free indeed.”



Fine, where does the unbeliever get their language and vocalizations? From the heavens or from the earth?



Let’s see what the Scriptures teach about the person who attempts to reform yet has not the Holy Spirit.

43When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it passes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ On its return, it finds the house vacant, swept clean, and put in order. 45Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and dwell there; and the final plight of that man is worse than the first.
​

So was that person ever truly free?



slavery is broken in only one condition. That is at the proclamation of the salvation of an individual.
Look at this passage to see true freedom of the believer entails struggle with the old nature.

14For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am fleshly, having been sold under sin.15For what I do, I do not understand. For what I want, this I do not do; but what I hate, this I do. 16Now if that which I do not want, this I do, I consent to the Law, that it isgood. 17And in that case I am no longer doing it, but the sin dwelling in me.

18For I know that there dwells in me nothing good, that is, in my flesh. For to will is present with me, but not to do good. 19For the good that I desire, I do not do; but the evil that I do not want, this I practice. 20Now if what I do not want, I do this, it is no longer I who do it, but sin dwelling in me.

21So I find the principle in my desiring to do good, that evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man; 23but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and making me captive to the law of sin being in my members. 24O wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of this body of death? 25Thanks be then to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

So even the believer must realize there is nothing good in the flesh, it is SOLD under sin. Sold means no freedom does it not?


Perhaps now that I showed you the Scripture you will understand the principle I presented is not nonsense.



For someone who hasn’t read Edwards, you go back away from such indictment. I don’t puff up Edwards, Graduate students still study and marvel at the insights of that 13 year old student of Yale.

You claim to hold to Scriptures as your final authority, and that is as it should be for all believers.

Having the presented you the Scriptures in this post, I will wait to see if you then will modify your understanding or remain entrenched in a view that is frail
.

Believing in the gospel means I'm already saved. There is nothing else that can do what God's word has already done in me After all it is the power of Salvation. Not Mr. Edwards.. All the Calvinist here have convinced me that Calvinism is not the path of truth No one has ever proven their doctrines to be true. There is far to many wholes in it. God's word never says we are saved before faith. God's word never says Salvation is for a special elect. There is no election for Gentiles. Men are chosen for reasons of service This does not make them Jews.nor does it save them. Calvinism has already proven it self wrong.There is no irresistible grace this idea is a slap in the face of God. It alone destroys the attraction of my Lord as if no one would ever believe in Him with out force. Men have sought God since Adam. There is no inability in seeking God. The atonement is not limited to just the elect. There is simply no truth at all in Calvinism.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

As many times as you have been asked to actually look at your DoG and LBCF what I get is well it must be true because I believe it. Well if you can live with the DoG that makes you a puppet then so be it. Critical thinking must not be important to you. Even your LBCF or WCF which ever you think is best have so many contradictions and evasions in them it shows just how bad a man made text can be.
You said you read the post I did to Austin but you still do not see that God expects man to think. You want one that saves you before you believe and then drops faith into you so you can believe. Sad real sad.
You keep following your DoG and LBCF I will follow that Bible and Christ Jesus.

Silver hair
It looks as if you are having trouble with basic honesty.
Your posts are loaded with assertions but when you are asked to prove them you hide from answering.This is dishonest.
Your first sentence here says;
WHAT I GET FROM YOU IS THE 1689 CONFESSION IS TRUE BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT.

To be clear-
I asked you to post any post where I said it is true- BECAUSE I believed it??? As if my subjective belief was the deciding factor.
To be clear-
The 1689 is very clear and a true summary of bible truth because it is Christ centered and is scripturally based overall.
I do not believe the Pope was THE ANTICHRIST....he was antichrist but.not THE antichrist.
However on matters of faith and practice it is spot on.
Your changing of the wording when I asked you to demonstrate what you posted, is indicative of a person caught not being truthful.

 

[AustinC]

So you don't believe the LBCF or DoG. Good to know. So what do you believe?

You want to know what people believe? Read what we write.
Tell me, when have I quoted from a source outside of the Bible in this discussion thread?
Please acknowledge that you are the one who has brought up external documents in which you contend with yourself. When you write, it's like watching a schizophrenic argue with himself, completely unaware that the bystanders have never stated anything that the schizophrenic is arguing.

Now, large passages of God's word have been provided to you.

I have answered all your verses you used to try argue for free will. I contend that your scriptural argument has no merit and even show you that you misunderstand scripture. It is in that arena where the argument lies. If you cannot stick with scripture alone...you will be arguing with yourself, like a schizophrenic.