Can you prove by Scripture

[Yeshua1]

Believing in the gospel means I'm already saved. There is nothing else that can do what God's word has already done in me After all it is the power of Salvation. Not Mr. Edwards.. All the Calvinist here have convinced me that Calvinism is not the path of truth No one has ever proven their doctrines to be true. There is far to many wholes in it. God's word never says we are saved before faith. God's word never says Salvation is for a special elect. There is no election for Gentiles. Men are chosen for reasons of service This does not make them Jews.nor does it save them. Calvinism has already proven it self wrong.There is no irresistible grace this idea is a slap in the face of God. It alone destroys the attraction of my Lord as if no one would ever believe in Him with out force. Men have sought God since Adam. There is no inability in seeking God. The atonement is not limited to just the elect. There is simply no truth at all in Calvinism.
MB

if God did not elect a lost sinner unto salvation, they will remain lost! happens to both Jews and Gentiles!

 

[Yeshua1]

So you don't believe the LBCF or DoG. Good to know. So what do you believe?

We believe that the LBCF is accurate in regards to sotierology proper, and that the DoG are all proven in the scriptures!

Bible alone is inspired form and by God....

 

[MB]

if God did not elect a lost sinner unto salvation, they will remain lost! happens to both Jews and Gentiles!

Even the Jews who are really elect to be a people unto God. Already know there election does not mean they will be saved no matter what. They like us still have to accept Christ as there Savior. They really are elect because God Him Self said so. He never said Gentiles are elect One thing for sure you have never proven your theory and you never will. It's all in the imagination of the Calvinist not scripture
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Even the Jews who are really elect to be a people unto God. Already know there election does not mean they will be saved no matter what. They like us still have to accept Christ as there Savior. They really are elect because God Him Self said so. He never said Gentiles are elcte. One thing for sure you have never proven your theory and you never will. It's all in the imagination of the Calvinist not scripture
MB

God saves lost Jews and gentiles exactly same way, thru and by divine election!

 

[MB]

We believe that the LBCF is accurate in regards to sotierology proper, and that the DoG are all proven in the scriptures!

Bible alone is inspired form and by God....

Absolute bull.
MB

 

[MB]

God saves lost Jews and gentiles exactly same way, thru and by divine election!

Prove it. I'll bet you can't
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Absolute bull.
MB

So the scriptures are not inspired then?

 

[MB]

So the scriptures are not inspired then?

Calvinism is not inspired. It is not true it's bull.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Prove it. I'll bet you can't
MB

Are there different ways for jews and gentiles to get saved then?

 

[AustinC]

Prove it. I'll bet you can't
MB

Romans 3:21-30 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Romans 8:27-33 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Romans 9:6-8,14-16,25-26 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

MB, this is from one letter to the Romans. I find it surprising how much you fight against God's declaration of election of all the saints. What is the purpose in your denial when the Bible clearly contends against you?

 

[Yeshua1]

Calvinism is not inspired. It is not true it's bull.
MB

Its not infallible, but does explain salvation process the most biblical!

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 3:21-30 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Romans 8:27-33 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Romans 9:6-8,14-16,25-26 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

MB, this is from one letter to the Romans. I find it surprising how much you fight against God's declaration of election of all the saints. What is the purpose in your denial when the Bible clearly contends against you?

he seems to have 2 ways to get saved, one for Jews and another got Gentiles, in same way Old Scofield had Jews saved by Law, and Gentiles now by Grace!

 

[Silverhair]

This assertion is, of course, false and is a strawman that is illogical, yet you assert it without care.


I don't use any of these as my guide. I use scripture alone. This is also another strawman of your own making.
So much of this discussion is you making up an argument that you then argue against. It's fascinating to watch you fight with yourself.


No one has argued that humans don't have a will or that, within the ordained will of God, they act on this will. You seem incapable of grasping the nuance between actions of the will that God allows verses actions of the will that cannot happen. Here's a simple example: A man can will himself to fly by simply flapping his arms. He is free to try. But, no man has the capacity to fly by simply flapping his arms. Therefore he has a will, but he has no freedom to will himself to fly. The will is confined.
So, a human can never will himself to choose God because the person in the flesh cannot do so. (Romans 8 & Ephesians 2)



Of course I do. You simply despise what I write.


Correct, this is your strawman.


There is the strawman that no one argues.

then that requires that all things are directed by their master.[/QUOTE]
There is no then, because your "if" is a figment of your imagination.

I have shown you that your imagined assertion is only in your mind and nowhere else.


You mean the view presented in Romans 8-11 as well as Ephesians 1?
I can quote these passages once again for you. Will you still say the Bible isn't biblical? I don't even have to explain anything from these passages as they explain themselves. However, you work hard to explain them away to maintain your strawman philosophy about a free will never expressed anywhere in the Bible.


Amen!


The law reveals this to a man. If a man knows not the law, they won't know they are sinners, but they will be guilty nonetheless.


Amen


Amen


Amen


Amen


Amen. God must drag the person to himself.


Here, you must either claim universalism or admit that a limited number of people from all nations, tribes and tongues are dragged in by God.


And here is where you are doing the limiting so as to avoid universalism. You divide people by their own feelings about sin. I divide people by God's choice of persons who will know their sin and bow before God. God must drag them to have their sin revealed and cause them to know the weight of their sin.

You leave it to men to feel their own sinfulness apart from God.


Amen


Amen


Jesus, here, tells you who will believe.

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”


Salvation is to be shared to all. It is only belied by those whom the Father has given to Jesus.


Amen


Here we will differ in our interpretation of what the "all" means.

If the all is universal, then every human would no longer be held guilty for their sins. Jesus would pay the ransom for their sins in full and God would have no justification for condemning anyone to hell. I wonder how you dance around that reality.

John is, however, telling his audience that Jesus is not only the propitiation for he and them, but for all in the world who believe. This is consistent with all the other verses that you have provided as well as what I have provided.

Silverhair, are you a proponent of universalism?


Amen!


Is God's desire unable to be fulfilled because man's will is more powerful than God's desire?
Of course not. The context tells us how to understand this verse.

1 Timothy 2:1-6 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

We see that salvation isn't just for the poor or slaves or common workers. God will save from all types of people and it is God's desire to do so. This is why we pray for all people, as well as kings and those in high places. God saves kings as well as paupers.



Amen, yet, only those who believe are saved. I already quoted you Jesus words from John 10. Jesus tells you that all whom the Father gives him will believe. Will you ignore Jesus words in order to maintain a position that is made of straw?[/QUOTE]

Your whole response was to deny scripture that does not fit your deterministic view. I would spend time going over this but for those that are blind,such as you, they will never see. If you have not seen the problems in your view after the many times it has been pointed out to you then nothing will help you.
From what I have read of your postings the only conclusion that can be drawn is that for you James White's statement is true.

"God is incapable of knowing an undetermined future, and therefore, for God to be omniscient and all-knowing, no future could be left undetermined, or better yet, unscripted." (James White, Debating Calvinism, p.163)

So yes you are just a robot even though you will deny it and call it a strawman.

 

[Silverhair]

It's simple to admit that the greek word used in John 6 that your English translation has as "draw" means "to drag." It is the idea of bringing water up from a well. The water doesn't go up the side of the well by its own choosing. It must have a bucket thrown down and then a force stronger than gravity must draw the water up out of the well. Thus the word "draw" in John 6 gives no room for free will choice, but instead conveys that the work is entirely God's doing when he draws people to himself.
Are you unaware of this fact, Silverhair? John 6 does not support your view at all.

This is an example of your misunderstanding of the text and your reading into the text what you wish to find. Your misunderstanding of the word "draw G1670" leads you you a bad conclusion.

Helkúō is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32, to draw or induce to come). The Complete Word Study Dictionary

helko to draw, compel

helko [helkuo] to draw, compel G1670

The basic meaning is “to draw,” “tug,” of, in the case of persons, “compel.” It may be used for “to draw” to a place by magic, for demons being “drawn” to animal life, or for the inner influencing of the will (Plato). The Semitic world has the concept of an irresistible drawing to God (cf. 1Sa_10:5; 1Sa_19:19 ff.; Jer_29:26; Hos_9:7). In the OT helkein denotes a powerful impulse, as in Son_1:4, which is obscure but expresses the force of love. This is the point in the two important passages in Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32. There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God of Christ which goes out to all (Joh_12:32) but without which no one can come (Joh_6:44). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

helkuo (or helko) (G1670), "to draw," differs from suro, as "drawing" does from violent "dragging."

This less violent significance, usually present in helko, but always absent from suro, is seen in the metaphorical use of helko, to signify "drawing" by inward power, by divine impulse, Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

 

[tyndale1946]

IMO, one of the greatest and most thorough works on freedom of the will was done by Jonathan Edwards, titled “Freedom of the Will.”

is is NOT for casual reading and I have even had graduate students who give up on reading it, for Edwards takes the time to approach the subject bit by bit and dismantling all arguments.

However, as difficult to read as it is, I have found nothing better in the treatment of the subject.

If you desire here is the PDF version: http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Jonathan Edwards Freedom of the Will.pdf

Here is an audiobook version. I have never done audiobooks, so I have no idea how this works, but if those of you who do will let me know your evaluation of the reading, I would appreciate the effort.
http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Jonathan Edwards Freedom of the Will.pdf

Thank you for that agedman I was in between readings and needed a new project and I will get to that shortly... One of my favorites saying is this... The LORD "ALWAYS" beats the preacher to the creature!... Which goes along with one of my favorite texts!

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Brother Glen

 

[AustinC]

Your whole response was to deny scripture that does not fit your deterministic view.

So you imagine. Indeed you need this to be true in order to justify a view not supported by the Bible.

I would spend time going over this but for those that are blind,such as you, they will never see.

Personal attack is a sign you have no support.

If you have not seen the problems in your view after the many times it has been pointed out to you then nothing will help you.

You seem oblivious to the fact that I held to free will philosophy for decades as I was raised with free will teaching. It's funny that you imagine I don't know your arguments or why you hold them. When you present them it's like hearing a recording of my past objections.
What changed my mind is the Bible itself. I could not argue my way around scripture without being a walking conundrum of inconsistency. So, I read and studied the Bible with the intention that I would agree with God, even if I couldn't figure out every aspect of what God is doing. I rested in God being Supreme because that is what the Bible says.

From what I have read of your postings the only conclusion that can be drawn is that for you James White's statement is true.

"God is incapable of knowing an undetermined future, and therefore, for God to be omniscient and all-knowing, no future could be left undetermined, or better yet, unscripted." (James White, Debating Calvinism, p.163)

There is no undetermined future. Why do you doubt God?

So yes you are just a robot even though you will deny it and call it a strawman.

This is your imagined conclusion as you fight to make your theory plausible in your own mind.
You have decided that man must have free will, regardless of biblical support, and anyone who shows you from God's word that you are wrong, must be a robot. You have effectively blocked yourself off from the Bible and from sound reasoning.

One day you will stand before the King and know you had a low view of your King.

 

[AustinC]

This is an example of your misunderstanding of the text and your reading into the text what you wish to find. Your misunderstanding of the word "draw G1670" leads you you a bad conclusion.

Helkúō is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32, to draw or induce to come). The Complete Word Study Dictionary

helko to draw, compel

helko [helkuo] to draw, compel G1670

The basic meaning is “to draw,” “tug,” of, in the case of persons, “compel.” It may be used for “to draw” to a place by magic, for demons being “drawn” to animal life, or for the inner influencing of the will (Plato). The Semitic world has the concept of an irresistible drawing to God (cf. 1Sa_10:5; 1Sa_19:19 ff.; Jer_29:26; Hos_9:7). In the OT helkein denotes a powerful impulse, as in Son_1:4, which is obscure but expresses the force of love. This is the point in the two important passages in Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32. There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God of Christ which goes out to all (Joh_12:32) but without which no one can come (Joh_6:44). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

helkuo (or helko) (G1670), "to draw," differs from suro, as "drawing" does from violent "dragging."

This less violent significance, usually present in helko, but always absent from suro, is seen in the metaphorical use of helko, to signify "drawing" by inward power, by divine impulse, Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

The key is that God is doing the work. In your very statement you prove your position wrong. Do you not see it?

 

[MB]

Are there different ways for jews and gentiles to get saved then?

Jews and Gentiles are saved the same way by faith
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

[MB]

Its not infallible, but does explain salvation process the most biblical!

It does not explain the Salvation process. It's simple Salvation is by faith. No faith no Grace
MB

 

[agedman]

It does not explain the Salvation process. It's simple Salvation is by faith. No faith no Grace
MB

The unmerited favor of God (Grace) always comes before the Word implanted faith. “Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.”

The Godly salvation faith is not the corrupt human hope so, but that implanted by God.