Catholic Who Embraced Jesus As Lord And Savior

[OfLivingWaters]

SEE later, you strange fruit!

 

[OfLivingWaters]

The Ministry of the Twelve Matthew 10:13-15
…13If the home is worthy, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14And if anyone will not welcome you or heed your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.…

 

[37818]

Sharing in the Lord's Supper ! Corinthians 11:28-30
…28Each one must examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the (body) eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.…

Some of the Corinthians were using the Lord's remembrance as just a meal: And for that reason it was being eaten unworthily. 1 Corinthians 11:20-34,
". . . When ye come together therefore into one place, [this] is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before [other] his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise [you] not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the [same] night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come. . . ."

And there is no alter. The bread and cup are metaphors to remember the body and blood of Christ who finished the work on the cross. It was not to be just a meal.

 

[Walter]

False accusation.

I did not deny Christ's metaphor.

Your false assertion. Hebrews 10:1.

You claim an non existent alter. How can any sane person agree on a non existent alter.
Hebrews 10:1. Hebrews 9:26-28.

All of the oldest excavated churches have ALTARS. None had a 'central pulpit'

 

[Walter]

Your arguments, as far as I know will not be deleted. And as far as I know, they will be archived for future reading.

The Baptist position is the New Testament is the sole Apostolic authority on all matters of faith and practice of the Christian faith.

None of the Scriptures regarding the Lord's remembrance of His death teach that the bread or the cup representing His body and the New Covenant in His blood teach they become His body and blood. They just do not.

Jesus' teaching on one coming to Him and believing in Him for eternal life was not about the remembrance that He would latter institute. The metaphor was about Jesus being the true bread of life.

Then why when so many departed from Him didn't He say: 'Hey, come back! You misunderstood Me! I was only talking metaphorically!'

 

[37818]

All of the oldest excavated churches have ALTARS. None had a 'central pulpit'

What are the dating of the said altars?
Nowhere in the New Testament is there anything about church altars. Altars are mentioned in the New Testament 22 times. But not of any church purpose.

 

[37818]

Then why when so many departed from Him didn't He say: 'Hey, come back! You misunderstood Me! I was only talking metaphorically!'

[When Jesus was teaching He is the bread of life]

". . . These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? . . ." -- John 6:59-62.

[The following statement Jesus explains it was metaphor.]

". . . It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. . . ." -- John 6:63-69.

Peter understood the metaphor.

 

[Walter]

[When Jesus was teaching He is the bread of life]

". . . These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? . . ." -- John 6:59-62.

[The following statement Jesus explains it was metaphor.]

". . . It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. . . ." -- John 6:63-69.

Peter understood the metaphor.

Let's look at it closer and see what makes sense. I borrowed this from another convert to Catholicism, I would appreciate your comment on his position..
'Some Baptists and other evangelicals argue that giving His “flesh” at this point refers to Him giving it on the cross. However,nowhere in the New Testament are the terms “eating my flesh” or “drinking my blood” used symbolically to refer to the cross.
Baptists may try to say that use of “bread” in verse 35 refers to the faith in Jesus that He requires from His followers. This ignores that the use of “bread” refers to Jesus himself, while his use of “belief” refers to the apostles. He does not equate bread with belief, but that his disciples must believe that He is the bread from heaven.
So, Jesus can either go back to bread and water metaphors as in verse 35, or stay on the same track and intensify his literal meaning, and indeed the latter is what he does. In fact, He removes all reasonable doubt about His literal intent of the second portion in five more ways.

1. In verse 53 he adds the command “drink his blood” and “eat his flesh,” and starts with “truly, truly,” a double expletive which corresponds to an oath, highlighting that He means literally.
2. This changes the imagery of drinking spiritual water in verse 35 to that of physically drinking his blood.
3. He exchanges the word for “eat” from one that could be interpreted either literally or symbolically (phago) to one that can only be interpreted literally (trogo). Phago is used 98 times in the New Testament, and only twice can it possibly be interpreted symbolically. Trogo however, is never used symbolically, and actually refers chewing, gnawing, munching, and masticating one’s food. So even though phago itself nearly always refers to eating, Jesus uses trogo just in case they misunderstand.
4. He repeats this new verb trogo four more times in the next four verses (54-58), reinforcing the command to eat him physically. In verse 55, he says his flesh is food “indeed” and his blood is drink “indeed.” The Greek word for “indeed” is *athles *which means “true,” “truly” or “truth.” It is used 24 other times in the New Testament and is ALWAYS connected to object nouns that are literal, not metaphorical. In fact, it is most often used in scipture to validate oral or written statements. Basically Jesus is saying “You heard right, my flesh really is food and my blood really is drink.”
5. At the risk of losing his entire following, even his disciples, he does not retract or soften his teaching.
   The Jews had been forbidden to drink blood ever since they were formed as a people, as shown in Leviticus 17:14: “…because the life of every creature is in the blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, ‘You must not eat the blood of any creature,’ because the life of every creature is in its blood…” The spiritual reason for this command is that the Jews were under the Old Covenant which did not have the power to give life, only to convict them of sin. It was necessary for sacrifice for temporary appeasement, but it did not bring life. In the New Covenant, Jesus shed his blood for the very purpose of forgiving the sins of Adam and Israel, making it now proper for us to drink the blood of the victim to receive life. Similarly, those who are members of the New Covenant will once again eat of the tree of life.'

 

[37818]

Let's look at it closer and see what makes sense. I borrowed this from another convert to Catholicism, I would appreciate your comment on his position..
'Some Baptists and other evangelicals argue that giving His “flesh” at this point refers to Him giving it on the cross. However,nowhere in the New Testament are the terms “eating my flesh” or “drinking my blood” used symbolically to refer to the cross.
Baptists may try to say that use of “bread” in verse 35 refers to the faith in Jesus that He requires from His followers. This ignores that the use of “bread” refers to Jesus himself, while his use of “belief” refers to the apostles. He does not equate bread with belief, but that his disciples must believe that He is the bread from heaven.
So, Jesus can either go back to bread and water metaphors as in verse 35, or stay on the same track and intensify his literal meaning, and indeed the latter is what he does. In fact, He removes all reasonable doubt about His literal intent of the second portion in five more ways.

1. In verse 53 he adds the command “drink his blood” and “eat his flesh,” and starts with “truly, truly,” a double expletive which corresponds to an oath, highlighting that He means literally.
2. This changes the imagery of drinking spiritual water in verse 35 to that of physically drinking his blood.
3. He exchanges the word for “eat” from one that could be interpreted either literally or symbolically (phago) to one that can only be interpreted literally (trogo). Phago is used 98 times in the New Testament, and only twice can it possibly be interpreted symbolically. Trogo however, is never used symbolically, and actually refers chewing, gnawing, munching, and masticating one’s food. So even though phago itself nearly always refers to eating, Jesus uses trogo just in case they misunderstand.
4. He repeats this new verb trogo four more times in the next four verses (54-58), reinforcing the command to eat him physically. In verse 55, he says his flesh is food “indeed” and his blood is drink “indeed.” The Greek word for “indeed” is *athles *which means “true,” “truly” or “truth.” It is used 24 other times in the New Testament and is ALWAYS connected to object nouns that are literal, not metaphorical. In fact, it is most often used in scipture to validate oral or written statements. Basically Jesus is saying “You heard right, my flesh really is food and my blood really is drink.”
5. At the risk of losing his entire following, even his disciples, he does not retract or soften his teaching.
   The Jews had been forbidden to drink blood ever since they were formed as a people, as shown in Leviticus 17:14: “…because the life of every creature is in the blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, ‘You must not eat the blood of any creature,’ because the life of every creature is in its blood…” The spiritual reason for this command is that the Jews were under the Old Covenant which did not have the power to give life, only to convict them of sin. It was necessary for sacrifice for temporary appeasement, but it did not bring life. In the New Covenant, Jesus shed his blood for the very purpose of forgiving the sins of Adam and Israel, making it now proper for us to drink the blood of the victim to receive life. Similarly, those who are members of the New Covenant will once again eat of the tree of life.'

I am not going to comment on every point.
John 6:35 is in the context of John 6:31-58.
So the eating is coming to Him, and the drinking is the believing in Him. ". . . And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.. . ." In John 6:47-48 ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. . . ." John 6:54-56, ". . . Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.. . ." In John 6:63 Jesus explains that is words, it being metaphor. Throughout the NT it is the believing by which one has eternal life, John 3:16; Romans 1:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 John 5:12-13.

 

[Adonia]

You worship another Jesus though, and teach another Gospel!

You continue to bear false witness about us. I will pray for you, that at some point you will repent from your sinful ways.

 

[37818]

You continue to bear false witness about us. I will pray for you, that at some point you will repent from your sinful ways.

How do you understand Hebrews 9:26?

 

[Iconoclast]

You continue to bear false witness about us. I will pray for you, that at some point you will repent from your sinful ways.

I will answer you when I get to a computer concerning your post about the stations of the cross.
I want you to know I am gor RC people, but against that false teaching church.

 

[Adonia]

You claim here "His sacrifice on the altar." Which from the Apostolic authority of the New Testament is no where to be found. Hence another gospel another Jesus.

Jesus the Christ finished His sacrifice on he cross prior to His physical death (John 19:28-30; Luke 23:46; Hebrews 10:10).

Cross, Altar, Sacrifice. The Cross and the Altar have the same meaning. At the Passover Seder (Last Supper), at the table (or Altar) Jesus says: "This is my body which I have given up for you". Likewise, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you". (Luke 22:19-20). Cross, Altar, Sacrifice.

As usual, you are ignorant of the true reality represented here.

Altar: table or flat-topped block used as the focus for a religious ritual, especially for making sacrifices or offerings to a deity.

 

[37818]

Cross, Altar, Sacrifice. The Cross and the Altar have the same meaning.

Altar: table or flat-topped block used as the focus for a religious ritual, especially for making sacrifices or offerings to a deity. Jesus was the sacrifice for us all. As usual, you get it wrong.

Please show me the altar in the New Testament.church.

 

[Adonia]

in denying the finished work of the cross.

We do no such thing.

And a the notion of the real body and blood of Jesus in the remembrance of His death constitutes another Jesus.

It does no such thing.

 

[Adonia]

Again, absolutely nothing about a sacrifice upon an alter regarding the Lord's remembrance of His death is to be found in the NT.

1 John 3:4.
James 2:10.
Galatians 2:21

As poster John Yurich said earlier: "That is the most insane comment". I couldn't have described your words any better myself!

 

[Adonia]

Please show me the altar in the New Testament.church.

Hebrews 13:10 "We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle" . "But the main thing to be laid hold of here is, I take it, that the central fact of Christianity is an altar, on which lies a sacrifice".

(A commentary on Hebrews 13:10 McClarens Expositions - Bible Hub)

If you do not believe that Christians have an altar, then you have a serious theological problem.

 

[Adonia]

How do you understand Hebrews 9:26?

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Jesus was the sacrifice to atone for mans sinful nature. How do you understand it?

 

[37818]

We do no such thing.

Do you understand the reason I think you deny Christ having finished paying for our sins once and for all on the cross - there needing no more sacrifice for sin?

It does no such thing.

So you see the flesh and bone immortal Lord Jesus Christ to be a flesh and blood mortal Jesus you eat to be the same.

Note 1 Corinthians 15:50; 1 Timothy 2:5.

 

[37818]

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Jesus was the sacrifice to atone for mans sinful nature. How do you understand it?

A once and for all scarifice for all sins (John 19:30; 1 John 2:2; Hebrews 10:10; Hebrews 10:17-18). So there is abolutely no more sacrifice for sins.