Catholics please share how you feel….

[Silverhair]

It was the Catholic Church that corrected Origen on his errant views, but Purgatory wasn’t one of them.

Purgatory was believed in, people knew it exists.

“For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord.” Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).

“When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil.” Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).

The sin being forgiven the stain of it remains, the stain being restitution, the damages incurred.

Leave the money on the bar after the fight for damages, or wait till you are brought before the judge.

There is your problem @Cathode, you think the RCC is able to correct what Origen said by coming up with something just as unbiblical. Your logic is a bit strange. By your logic we should have the fox guard the hen house.

 

[Cathode]

You are deluded if you believe this ridiculous purgatory agenda.

Say a corporate thief has stolen millions and lived a high life on his boat in Bermuda and great luxury mansion.
But he stole the retirement funds of many hard working people that end up destitute and living out of their cars or living under a tarp in old age, sickness, danger, anxiety and misery.

Say the corporate thief mortally wounds himself one day on his JetSki after a heavy lobster lunch and fine South Australian wine.
As he is dying he asks God to forgive his sins, come into his life and he gets forgiven and dies.

Would you say his sin and all the damage he did is absolved, completely plenary.?

The sin is forgiven, but restitution has to be made in justice to those destitute old people living under a tarp.
He must undergo the consequences, of their sufferings at the very least, if God is to be called Just.

Stealing retirement funds is stealing wages, wages in old age. Defrauding wages cries out to the Lord Hosts, The Lord of Armies.

God cares to the last penny, He is Just.

 

[Cathode]

There is your problem @Cathode, you think the RCC is able to correct what Origen said by coming up with something just as unbiblical. Your logic is a bit strange. By your logic we should have the fox guard the hen house.

You aren’t the judge of what’s biblical, neither am I.

The original Apostolic understanding and interpretation of 1 Corinthians passages is referring to Purgatory, it doesn’t matter who comes along 1500 years later and decides to interpret something different by “ what the words mean to me “.
His private opinion doesn’t matter, It still means purgatory.

Do you understand?

 

[Silverhair]

I wish I was, it’s a real place of suffering. My only agenda is not to go there and either get people out of there, or warn them so they don’t go there.

Whilst sins may be forgiven, restitution is exacting on the other side, and far harsher.

That’s why in scripture 1 Cor. we are told to settle quickly with our opponent, not wait till it is brought before the judge.
Those reading this scripture in the ancient meaning of the Apostles know it’s about purgatory. Those ignorant of Apostolic Tradition interpreting what the “ words mean to me “ remain ignorant of what they actually mean.

Purgatory is a prison a man can be released from, unlike hell, which is eternal. But he must pay restitution down to the last penny before he is released, and only till the last penny is paid.
He is saved, but only as through fire.
That fire is real, but far beyond fire here.

There are people in the fire, people in the smoke and people in the fog, there is different levels of purgatory.

Pay back or make restitution to anyone you have wronged.

Money, goods, whatever. Settle out of court whilst you are still in this world. What you settle with your opponent here, is merely approved and held good by the judge. He is glad not to have to impose restitution.

If you have withheld wages, embezzled money that has destroyed many retirements, lives and families, you can be forgiven, but restitution must be made.

God does not forget anything, no one gets away with anything.

“The wages that you have [fraudulently] withheld from the laborers who have mowed your fields are crying out [against you for vengeance]; and the cries of the harvesters have come to the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. “

If you are ripped off in this world and even if you didn’t know it, God knows it and God cares about it.

It is right and just you settle quickly here, whilst people are still suffering and living diminished lives because of your actions.
You can wait till their lives are over and yours, then you will make restitution the hardest way there is in Purgatory, till the last penny is paid.

@Cathode by your comments you keep pointing out scripture that you do not believe. You keep saying that when we die we will still have sins to pay for but the bible does not agree with you.

We all sin and need forgiveness and this is freely given to those that will confess their sins.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But I can understand why the RCC wants to push the unbiblical idea of purgatory. It has become a real cash cow for the church.
What with the misinformed paying for one or more masses to be said or just the almsgiving as a means to speed the dead's journey out of purgatory. Ya that sounds good, bribe God with money.

The whole RCC doctrine of purgatory and the means by which its torments can be avoided is full of tragic absurdities and self-contradictions, and is in direct conflict with the teaching of the Word of God.

The idea of purgatory finds its roots in Buddhism and other ancient religious systems, long before the existence of the RCC. Gregory 1 added the concept of purifying fires to the already current belief that there was a place somewhere between Heaven and Hell, to which were sent the souls of those who were not bad enough for Hell with its endless torments, and not good enough for Heaven with its holy and eternal joys. These purifying fires would gradually consume all defilement, until the soul was fit to see God.

So again we see man-made doctrine held over scriptural truth. And this in spite of the fact that according to RCC teaching the souls in purgatory have already been justified at and by baptism; divine justice has not thereby been fully satisfied, so that the soul, though escaping the torments of Hell, must still endure the temporary punishment for its sins in purgatory.

The RCC is not even consistent with it's own teachings.

 

[Silverhair]

You aren’t the judge of what’s biblical, neither am I.

The original Apostolic understanding and interpretation of 1 Corinthians passages is referring to Purgatory, it doesn’t matter who comes along 1500 years later and decides to interpret something different by “ what the words mean to me “.
His private opinion doesn’t matter, It still means purgatory.

Do you understand?

I have to ask, do you understand what context means? If you say you do then try reading the context as it will clear up your confusion. Well it should but that remains to be seen.

I am glad to see that you have finally agreed that it is the word of God the is the judge not man which logically includes the RCC.

So what do we find when we look at the context.
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?

1Co 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

1Co 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

1Co 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

1Co 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

1Co 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

1Co 3:13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1Co 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

We see that service to God is being judged not a man sins so it has nothing to do with one having sins purged in purgatory. Plus unless you think God the Holy Spirit has sins to be purged you have to explain why He would need to spend time in purgatory.

I read an article re purgatory as explained by the Archbishop of Montreal. He tells of a Franciscan monk, grievously ill, who was given the option of lingering on earth for another year or dying at once and spending three days in purgatory. He elected to die. After being one day in purgatory the angel visited him, and was accused of cruelty, having left him there to suffer for a century instead of three days as stipulated! But the angel assured him that he had been there for only twenty-four hours, and it was the extremity of his anguish that made him think he had been there so long.

The same book tells of a revelation given to St. Margaret de Pazzi, who in a trance visited purgatory for two hours, during which time she walked about the convent garden wringing her hands and uttering awful lamentations as she viewed different compartments of torment. Priests and nuns were there. In another place were the impenitent and disobedient. In yet another, misers and liars, the latter having molten lead poured down their throats.

So this is how the RCC sees God treating those that He loves, those that are justified by His son, the redeemed. This seems more like the tortures of the unredeemed by the demons of hell.

 

[Walter]

Do you believe in Limbo as well?

Not in the Catechism and thus not a teaching of the Church

 

[Cathode]

I have to ask, do you understand what context means? If you say you do then try reading the context as it will clear up your confusion. Well it should but that remains to be seen.

Sure, I read scripture in the context of 2000 year old Apostolic Tradition which is absolute, you read scripture in the context of “ what the words mean to you “, which is subjective.

We see that service to God is being judged not a man sins so it has nothing to do with one having sins purged in purgatory. Plus unless you think God the Holy Spirit has sins to be purged you have to explain why He would need to spend time in purgatory.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That’s right, in Purgatory He cleanses us from all unrighteousness, down to the last penny.

 

[Silverhair]

Sure, I read scripture in the context of 2000 year old Apostolic Tradition which is absolute, you read scripture in the context of “ what the words mean to you “, which is subjective.



1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That’s right, in Purgatory He cleanses us from all unrighteousness, down to the last penny.

So you ignore context in support of your errant RCC views. It is obvious that the truth of God's word is not what you seek.

I and others have attempted to point you to the truth but to no avail. You will continue to follow your pope rather than God. May God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Cathode]

So you ignore context in support of your errant RCC views. It is obvious that the truth of God's word is not what you seek.

I and others have attempted to point you to the truth but to no avail. You will continue to follow your pope rather than God. May God have mercy on your soul.

You are not the arbiter of scriptures meaning.

Yours is just one of thousands of private interpretations of scripture out there, none more authoritive than the next.

Unless you are granting your interpretations of Scripture an infallibility you deny the Catholic Church.

 

[Silverhair]

You are not the arbiter of scriptures meaning.

Yours is just one of thousands of private interpretations of scripture out there, none more authoritive than the next.

Unless you are granting your interpretations of Scripture an infallibility you deny the Catholic Church.

I just do not think that the Holy Spirit tries to hide things in ambiguous text. The context is clear when you open your eyes. The topic is service not purgatory and we can know this because purgatory is something that the RCC borrowed from Buddhism and other ancient religious systems so from pagan belief systems.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not in the Catechism and thus not a teaching of the Church

It isn’t there any more but it was there at one time

 

[Cathode]

I just do not think that the Holy Spirit tries to hide things in ambiguous text. The context is clear when you open your eyes. The topic is service not purgatory and we can know this because purgatory is something that the RCC borrowed from Buddhism and other ancient religious systems so from pagan belief systems.

No, that’s just your prejudiced speculations talking, don’t listen to it. Be just and fair.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It was the Catholic Church that corrected Origen on his errant views, but Purgatory wasn’t one of them.

Purgatory was believed in, people knew it exists.

“For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord.” Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).

“When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil.” Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).

The sin being forgiven the stain of it remains, the stain being restitution, the damages incurred.

Leave the money on the bar after the fight for damages, or wait till you are brought before the judge.

There we have it, a doctrine of restitution, not one of forgiveness. However Jesus has already paid for these sins with his blood. My church teaches we are sanctified by Works ( Jesus works, by Blood (by Jesus blood), by By Faith (Faith in Jesus as Lord & Savior, and by Grace which is Gods FORGIVING LOVE shown to His children. He does not hold us to a whipping post for past sins, even if those sins are committed in a time of weakness…again because he is mercy full and forgiving, no loving parent would be that way to his child. Have you ever been a parent, for if so you’d know forgiveness. There is temporal punishments He can dole out to correct but never ever eternal. Your church just used this man made purgatory as a means to extort money from the living and that is a sign of falseness & evil.

 

[Silverhair]

No, that’s just your prejudiced speculations talking, don’t listen to it. Be just and fair.

The only prejudiced speculations are those that are coming from the RCC. Context is not the friend of the RCC as it shows up the errors in their theology.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The only prejudiced speculations are those that are coming from the RCC. Context is not the friend of the RCC as it shows up the errors in their theology.

BTW, as an for your information… this is their fearless leader. Didn’t Karl Marx state that religion was the opiate of the masses? Well!?!
Pope hosts Marxist-Christian dialogue group at Vatican, praises cooperation 'promoting the common good' | Fox News

 

[Silverhair]

BTW, as an for your information… this is their fearless leader. Didn’t Karl Marx state that religion was the opiate of the masses? Well!?!
Pope hosts Marxist-Christian dialogue group at Vatican, praises cooperation 'promoting the common good' | Fox News

Would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall at that meeting.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall at that meeting.

Again, Richard Rohr glowingly relates a story that he regularly visits the pope at the Vatican and recently met Bono who had just met the pope that day. Bono indicated he had a lively meeting where he found himself defending capitalism because Frankie is violently apposed to it. Id conclude that the guy is a Marxist. Now how much does Catholic Charities finance Socialist/ Marxist endeavors like the boarder crossings do you think?

 

[Silverhair]

Again, Richard Rohr glowingly relates a story that he regularly visits the pope at the Vatican and recently met Bono who had just met the pope that day. Bono indicated he had a lively meeting where he found himself defending capitalism because Frankie is violently apposed to it. Id conclude that the guy is a Marxist. Now how much does Catholic Charities finance Socialist/ Marxist endeavors like the boarder crossings do you think?

I would think more socialist than marxist. Does not want to loose control. But since they take their marching orders from the top it would seem to lean into open the gates.

I live north of 49th so not affected directly but we do have our leadership problems up here. There is none. Lord only knows how much more trouble he can cause before the next vote. But we can always hope their tanking numbers will make the Lib's force him out. But then we have to wonder who will they replace him with but they do not have a very deep pool to choose from.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I would think more socialist than marxist. Does not want to loose control. But since they take their marching orders from the top it would seem to lean into open the gates.

I live north of 49th so not affected directly but we do have our leadership problems up here. There is none. Lord only knows how much more trouble he can cause before the next vote. But we can always hope their tanking numbers will make the Lib's force him out. But then we have to wonder who will they replace him with but they do not have a very deep pool to choose from.

I believe you’re referring to Biden and I agree that he is a problem and that his popularity polls are tanking. My wife told me last night that the US is now bombing Iran with UK forces as well but I didn’t confirm that, it disappointed me so much I went to bed early… hope it’s not true.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And the news in Africa…

Africa's Catholic hierarchy refuses same-sex blessings, says such unions are contrary to God's will