again, there are NO persons with the mantle of a prophet/Apsotle in the sense of the term as being gifted to be able to write and speak the words of the Lord!
NONE can claim that for today!
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Charismatic Errors Listed
- Thread starter John of Japan
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again, there are NO persons with the mantle of a prophet/Apsotle in the sense of the term as being gifted to be able to write and speak the words of the Lord!
NONE can claim that for today!
Why would I show where they've been done away with? I'm a church planting missionary.
Why should I "stick to Scriptures" to prove my stand? Does it embarass you that there are so many Charismatic heresies and heretics out there? Well it should. Yes, the Scriptures are what we live by, but the stories illustrate the Scripture. You should be hiding your head in shame that you call yourself a Charismatic while there are so many wicked Charismatics out there.
I could give tons more stories about Charismatic churches that abuse the saints. The book Churches that Abuse by Ronald M. Enroth is full of such sad, sad stories. I could also give tons of stories about how fake Charismatic "healers" have abused the saints. There is simply not enough time and room on the thread to give it all.
Not all the apostles wrote a book in the Bible.
I could also show you many things in the name of a "Baptist" have done too. What would that prove....that not all are true? Again..I know there is some weird stuff going on out there. But it does not explain away the truth!
ANd by doing that what are you trying to prove? That there is falsehood out there? I think we all know that! BUT THERE IS ALSO REAL ....I would rather stick to defending the scriptures!
There are far more phonies, frauds and heresies per capita in the Charismatic movement than among Baptists. I've listed some bizarre and awful practices and heresies among Charismatics that would never ever be allowed among Baptist churches of any stripe.
Seems to me you've been defending the Charismatic errors a lot more than defending the Scriptures. But you want Scriptues? Try these, the ones I am obeying by exposing error:
"22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"(Matt. 7).
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" (Matt. 7:15).
"28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20).
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1).
If you are not exposing evil teachers and teaching, you are ignoring these Scripturees. And there are many similar Scriptures telling us to beware of false teachers and false prophets. Prov. 14:15--"The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going."
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Here is an example of the wickedness of Charismatic fake "healers." (Baptists have no fake healers that I've ever heard of, unless they are Charismatic Baptists.) The source is C. Everett Koop, former surgeon general of the US. I trust no one has a problem with his veracity.
He tells of research done and one anecdote from that in "Faith-Healing and the Sovereignty of God (The Agony of Deceit, ch. 9). An old man applied for healing at a large healing campaign. He suffered from eyesight that had deteriated. On the night appointed, he was called up to the "healer" who took off the old man's glasses, threw them down and stepped on the, crushing them. He then gave the old man a large print Bible, and called him cured because he could read in the large print Bible. The old man went home, but could not find his own Bible since his glasses were now broken. When he went back to the healer, he was told, "You didn't have enough faith, or the healing would have stuck" (p. 180).
Folks, that is just plain wicked and mean, and will turn people away from Christ and the Bible, not to it. awaken chooses not to call such things wicked and chooses not to stand against them, but rather excuses them. Not only that, he criticizes those who expose such evil. So be it. He has made clear who and what he is.
He tells of research done and one anecdote from that in "Faith-Healing and the Sovereignty of God (The Agony of Deceit, ch. 9). An old man applied for healing at a large healing campaign. He suffered from eyesight that had deteriated. On the night appointed, he was called up to the "healer" who took off the old man's glasses, threw them down and stepped on the, crushing them. He then gave the old man a large print Bible, and called him cured because he could read in the large print Bible. The old man went home, but could not find his own Bible since his glasses were now broken. When he went back to the healer, he was told, "You didn't have enough faith, or the healing would have stuck" (p. 180).
Folks, that is just plain wicked and mean, and will turn people away from Christ and the Bible, not to it. awaken chooses not to call such things wicked and chooses not to stand against them, but rather excuses them. Not only that, he criticizes those who expose such evil. So be it. He has made clear who and what he is.
That is why I am not in a Charismatic church! I believe Baptist hold to more of the truth than the others. But the Baptist do not hold complete truth either. There are many Baptist that disagree on many teachings in the Bible.
I have NO PROBLEM with the scriptures you have posted! I believe every word! That is why it is important to know the whole truth so that those false teachers and PROPHETS will not deceive us.
I love these scriptures too...
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,no are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts"(Is. 55:8-9)
"Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)
"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and NOT according to Christ." (Colossians 2:8)
So what do you say about someone that has suffered with headaches to such a degree that her life was at a halt. That she could not fucntion in soceity because of them. She had gone to ever doctor even haD surgery but to no avail. She went to a church that believed in healing and they laid hands on her and her headaches went away. Now she is back in college... working at a regular job etc.
Again, YES! there are many false teacher, healers etc. out there but there are also real! I have witness this myself on many occasions.
God heals in many ways! That is why it is the MANIFESTATION OF HEALINGS!
You can call it a manifestation if you want. That is why you stick to that nebulous word. The Holy Spirit "manifests" himself in different ways, but not in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as described in 1Cor.12. That which was given in 1Cor.12 is the "gift of healing," which Peter demonstrated in Acts 5:16 does not happen today. What you described does, in our church, in other churches, and in answer to prayer. Most of us simply just don't refer to it as a "manifestation of the Spirit." There is no need to. But if you are hung up on that word, then so be it. That being the case He doesn't manifest Himself through the gifts of the Holy Spirit as mentioned in 1Cor.12:28.
I say wonderful, and praise the Lord! This was done in a Biblical way according to James 5:14-15. All of the Baptists I know believe in this. My grandfather had two whole chapters on divine healing in his best selling book on prayer (over 500,000 copies), Prayer: Asking and Receiving. In that book he told of many such healings, including my aunt Grace when she was a little girl being healed miraculously of diptheria.
Here is where you go wrong. While it speaks of healing, the Bible never speaks of "healers" and "healing meetings" so loved by the Charismatics. I don't believe there is a single Charismatic "healer" out there who is legitimate. All are proven to be fakes.
WHere did I say healers? God is the healer...What did Peter tell them when they tried to claim he (Peter) was the healer? Acts 3:13 says that he said "..Why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? Peter gave God all the glory! God still uses man to bring Him glory through manifesting the Holy Spirit..and one of those manifestation is healings. Can he heal other ways..YES! I do not limit God. THat is why I showed that in Cor. it said Healings
Glad to know you don't follow the Charismatic party line in this respect. But you did intimate that there are real healers out there, did you not?
No healers other than God! But he heals in many ways... including the laying on of hands by a person! THe person does not heal..God gets the glory!
Alive in Christ
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And of course that is now dovetailing into the "seed faith" hellishness...where people are brainwashed into believing that if you give a $1000.00 *seed* to the thief..I mean teacher...you will become rich beyond your wildest dreams.
plain_n_simple
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Yes its a lie
Alive in Christ
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I have no problem wih this.
There is nothing in this that suggests the weirdo "phony faith healers" who are our there.
No, God only heals in one way, with His power. Anointing with oil and laying on of hands are symbolic.
Laying on of hands is a symbol for blessing someone, just as happened many times in the Bible. When I was ordained as a preacher, they laid hands on me just as with Timothy (1 Tim. 4:14). Just so, when Christ spit on the man's eyes to heal him, that was not something we are to imitate. Christ was teaching the man. The anointing with oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit. It is not what heals. The power of God is what heals.
We are never commanded to do anything in healing other than anointing with oil in James 5. We are not told to hit them on the forehead like Ernest Angley.
Chasmatics err in that they see physical healing provided for in the atonement, that God still grants gift to heal today, and that it is His will that all be healed, if not, due to lack of faith/understanding/devil took it away etc!
These statements infer that you believe in faith healers.
The one place in Scripture that "manifestation of the Spirit" is used in 1Cor.12:7 and you use that one verse and build an entire doctrine around it. You can't even define the word properly. In context the word refers to the Holy Spirit revealing himself during that time period through the use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit through the local church, and only the local church as the context is very explicit in detailing that.
Thus to say that, "God still using man to bring glory through manifesting the Holy Spirit, and one of those manifestations is healing," is to infer that the gift of healing is still operative. But no one today has the gift of healing. No one today can heal as Peter did in Acts 5:16. That gift has ceased. If it hasn't show me someone who has it. Show me someone who can go outside of his own environment, like into the ER of a given hospital and heal all that are there. They can't do it. Peter could heal ALL that came to him--no excuses.
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