Heaven or hell? What if God knows what to they will become when they grow old? But that would not be fair.
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Children who die
- Thread starter evangelist6589
- Start date
PreachTony
Active Member
This is like one of those math word problems on a test where the answer is "D. Not Enough Information." Are you talking about babies? Or older children? I was saved when I was ten. I've personally known people saved as young as seven. When it comes to babies, and most toddlers, they have no knowledge of spiritual law-breaking, and as Paul wrote, "where no law is, there is no transgression."
What's this "what if" stuff? Are you saying there are things God does not know?
Of course God knows what we will all become. He doesn't remove people or bring death upon them as babies just because of what they'll be when they're older. Otherwise, men like Manasseh, Hitler, or Pol Pot would never have existed.
C'mon, Evan, you're a Calvinist...since when has "fairness" ever had anything to do with it?
I'm a bit confused about your OP.
What exactly are you asking when you post "Heaven or Hell" as it relates to children as they progress on in years?
It seems that you're trying to claim that God in His omniscience is somehow being unfair in His dealings with men with regard to their future eternal state.
If that's what you're trying to say, you need to read Romans 9:14-33. Accusing God of being unfair to us with regard where His created mankind will spend eternity is, IMHO, nearing heresy, Evan.
What exactly are you asking when you post "Heaven or Hell" as it relates to children as they progress on in years?
It seems that you're trying to claim that God in His omniscience is somehow being unfair in His dealings with men with regard to their future eternal state.
If that's what you're trying to say, you need to read Romans 9:14-33. Accusing God of being unfair to us with regard where His created mankind will spend eternity is, IMHO, nearing heresy, Evan.
Which one does this verse apply to if death comes at time of the image?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man (a certain one) be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Not enough information as others have said.
The only verse we really have on the topic oy young children is 2 Sam 12:22-23
22*He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said,*‘Who knows whether the*Lord*will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’*23*But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him,*but he will not return to me.”
Where David says he will go to his child.
As far as fair, fair is for us all to go to hell. No one wants God to be fair, what they want is God to be merciful.
That's not at all the only thing written about the issue. But in order to properly understand it, we have to leave unbiblical traditions behind - namely, the putrid notion that we are born spiritually dead. Not at all the case, and it has led to total confusion on this issue
Greektim
Well-Known Member
You ask questions, but will you answer them???
Here is my response in the form of questions... to a Calvinist (?).
(1) What is the criteria for God's election of you?
(2) Would that same criteria not apply to all individuals no matter the age? Otherwise, what do you mean by "unconditional election"?
(3) What does your OP question have anything to do w/ unconditional election? You sound like there are conditions.
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Not who you addressed the question to but I will answer.
1. None
2. Yes
My husband and I disagree on this topic, but I do believe that babies that are miscarried, aborted, or die very young, before they can understand, sin righteousness and judgment, go to heaven. I don't say this because I think that is fair, as I acknowledge that fair is for all to end in hell. But I say that because God is merciful.
Our old pastor, also reformed, believed that all children that die very young, and in the womb are elect.
I see you edited your post to add one more question but that question is specific for Evan so I will leave it for him.
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Are we talking about children who die before the "age of accountability"??
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Believe it or not there is a scripture that covers your OP!
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Why question God?... It's in his hands and his alone!... Brother Glen
SMH
I don't get it.
Doesn't even come close to answering the question.
I have heard that used as an example of babies dying and automatically being ushered into heaven. If babies have no Law, then there is no transgression. So, how do babies die while even in the womb? People automatically say they die due to the curse caused by Adam and that is true. But for babies to have possessed that curse that came from Adam, they also have to have that sin passed unto them, too. It is like saying someone died from the flu in the flu epidemic of 1918 and never had the flu virus to begin with. Babies die the same as adults and that is because of sin. The wages of sin is death.[Rom. 6:23a] If babies, even while in the womb, have no sin, then there is no way they could die. Paul addressed this when he wrote To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.[Rom. 5:13,14] This shows that Adam's sin, from the time he sinned until the Law was given, they died from Adam's sin, because there was no Law given condemn them.
PreachTony=2250766 said:
We can find where God destroyed all the inhabitants of the earth except for 8 people one time. God commanded Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”[1 Sam. 15:1-3]
Fairness is getting cast into hell. That is fair, mon ami.
Death is the result of sin by Adam (Rom. 5:12) "death by sin" which demonstrates all humanity and not merely dead infants sinned when Adam sinned. Paul's argument that before the law of Moses death existed and therefore it cannot be attributed to personal individual sin against the law or sin against conscience, as dying infants cannot sin against conscience but yet some die while still in the womb and others outside the womb and before they are able to make individual decisions. Sin is attributed the the totality of the human nature existing and acting in "one man" against the law revealed in the Garden of Eden where the whole human race sinned in one man - Adam. BY ONE MAN committing ONE SIN against ONE LAW (Gen. 2:17) "all men have sinned" - aorist tense completed action not "all men shall sin" or "might sin" but "have sinned" and thus death "passed upon all men" not "shall pass" or "might pass" upon all men.
By "one man's sin many be dead" NOT "by many men's sins many be dead" (Arminianism)
By "on man's disobedience many were made sinners" NOT "by many men's disobedience were many made sinners" (Arminianism).
Finally, individual death is an APPOINTMENT made by God (Heb. 9:27) and that includes the death of infants. You will die at your appointed time. The time of your birth, the length of your days, and the day of your death is APPOINTED.
The death of infants is iron clad proof that we come into this world "condemned already" in a state of unbelief (Jn. 3;17-18) born with a sinful nature subject to death.
Jesus said that a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit nor a evil tree bring forth good fruit and the tree he identifies as the human heart (Mt. 12:32-37). Since infants come into this world with a heart that can bring and always does bring forth evil fruit they must come into the world with an evil heart because a good heart cannot bring forth evil fruit.
This issue cannot be explained without first understanding the dichotomy of a human being. Body and spirit. Body from Adam, spirit from God.
The sin of Adam brought a curse to the GROUND, which is what his physical body came from. At death, the dust returns to the ground from where it came, and the spirit returns to GOD who gave it - Ecclesiastes 12:7, Zechariah 12:1
Our spirit did not come from Adam, so he was not able to corrupt our spirit. And I dare say it's near heretical to think Adam could corrupt the very breath if God
Romans 5:12-21 is in the context of physical death and resurrection. If corruption in spirit is passed physically, the Jesus would have been corrupt in spirit. The gospels clearly show His physical lineage all the way back to Adam.
We become spiritually dead when we go our own way - Romans 1:18-25
The sin of Adam brought a curse to the GROUND, which is what his physical body came from. At death, the dust returns to the ground from where it came, and the spirit returns to GOD who gave it - Ecclesiastes 12:7, Zechariah 12:1
Our spirit did not come from Adam, so he was not able to corrupt our spirit. And I dare say it's near heretical to think Adam could corrupt the very breath if God
Romans 5:12-21 is in the context of physical death and resurrection. If corruption in spirit is passed physically, the Jesus would have been corrupt in spirit. The gospels clearly show His physical lineage all the way back to Adam.
We become spiritually dead when we go our own way - Romans 1:18-25
Is God good?
Does He care about children?
Are we judged righteously?
Obviously, yes to all.
Therefore we know that God will take care of those who die before they know there difference between right and wrong.
Does He care about children?
Are we judged righteously?
Obviously, yes to all.
Therefore we know that God will take care of those who die before they know there difference between right and wrong.
The Bible clearly speaks of sins of the spirit not merely of the body and so man can corrupt himself spiritually. It is the spirit which is first born again (Jn. 3:6) because the spirit of man is what died "in the day" Adam ate, whereas the body did not return to dust until 930 years later.
Romans 5:12-21 is not in the context of physical death and resurrection but in the context of JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH (Rom. 3-5) as the transition to sanctification of the body does not occur until Romans 6-8:24. The body needs salvation because the spirit of man has defiled it or have you not read Matthew 15:17-19??? "From the heart" sin originates not from the body.
If what you were saying was true then the only salvation we need is of the body not the spirit and that is simply false.
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Greektim
Well-Known Member
What is most disappointing (but not surprising) is that Evangelist#### only asks questions but rarely dialogues when he is put to the test.
If he claims to be a Calvinist, then this should not be that hard of an issue. Jesus will save HIS people from their sins. All elect babies go to be with God. If you want to feel better and say that all babies are elect, then fine. But I would not go beyond what the 1689 LBC states:
If he claims to be a Calvinist, then this should not be that hard of an issue. Jesus will save HIS people from their sins. All elect babies go to be with God. If you want to feel better and say that all babies are elect, then fine. But I would not go beyond what the 1689 LBC states:
1689 LBC said: