Choice: God or Man - exegete John 6:32-40

[MB]

So only parts of the Bible can be applied to us today and John 6 is one of those passages that does not apply?
When Jesus says, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day," that doesn't apply to us?
When Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day," Jesus is not speaking to us? It has no application for us?

It isn't the Father who draws men to Christ after the resurrection. It;s Christ Him Self.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself..

The path to Salvation is found by men.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Calvinist on the other hand don't even follow the path. Because a path to Salvation suggest a choice to do so.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

So only parts of the Bible can be applied to us today and John 6 is one of those passages that does not apply?
When Jesus says, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day," that doesn't apply to us?
When Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day," Jesus is not speaking to us? It has no application for us?

I did not say that

 

[Particular]

Not even all the disciples believed Judas certainly also Thomas had doubts. They were both chosen and drawn yet they had doubts. But these are Jews and they were blinded. Act's 28:28 does say that the Gentiles will hear the gospel. People can choose to believe or not. While in the doctrine you hold they have no choice. They don't have any faith to believe until they are regenerated. Our lord just does not save unbelievers. and afterwards make them believe No where in scripture does it ever say He does. If you think I'm wrong prove it with scripture. There is no such thing in scripture as forced Salvation. Salvation is a gift it is not something that you get by being elect. Judas was elect and it didn't give him any special consideration. Election does not mean any thing with out the person having faith in Jesus Christ.


Acts 13:48 KJV does not fit the passage. Here is why.
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;
This is from young's literal translation and is proof the KJV translation of this verse is in error. Greens Greek to English also says the same thing.
As well as other versions

This verse above proves Paul was speaking to the Jews and the Bible says they were blinded
because they rejected there messiah.Most are still blind to the truth


There is nothing in all of this part of acts that says the Gentiles cannot hear. There is nothing here to suggest that any cannot hear. Hearing the gospel is not a guarantee of Salvation. Rebellion sends many to Hell.
MB

Both Jew and Greek had nothing to do with Jesus did not believe. Both Jew and Greek did believe.
It seems you claim that human reasoning determined whether one believed and one didn't. While I claim that belief is appointed to some by God's Supremacy over all His creation.
Acts 13:48 would agree with me.
"When the Gentiles heard this, they were began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
Acts 2 shares something similar with the Jews.
"Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the apostles, Brothers, what should we do?"
"So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about 3000 souls."
It seems that God is supremely at work to save those whom He wills.

 

[MB]

There's a difference between not having any choice, and we, as men already making our choice to reject Him and His words, day after day.

The latter is what God's word teaches, not the former.
Rebellion, against Him and His words.

There are many Scriptures that declare that men hear because they have "ears to hear", and do not because they do not.

Please see post # 105.

"Hearing" the Gospel with born again "ears" is the guarantee of eternal life ( 1 Corinthians 1:18, Ephesians 1:13 ).

But, hearing it physically, outside of the Holy Spirit's calling, is not.
Unless someone is "called", they are unable to "hear" His words.

Only those that are "of God" are able to "hear" ( John 8:47 ).
Those that are not, do not "hear".

Rebellion, which is what all of us are stuck in, willfully, is what sends all of us to Hell, except for God's grace and mercy ( Titus 3:5-6 ).

Save you nonsense for someone else. I will not respond to people who tell me I'm not saved because I'm not a Calvinist

 

[Particular]

It isn't the Father who draws men to Christ after the resurrection. It;s Christ Him Self.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself..

The path to Salvation is found by men.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Calvinist on the other hand don't even follow the path. Because a path to Salvation suggest a choice to do so.
MB

Both are God.
God the Father wills that God the Son would lose none that God the Father gives him. (John 6:39)

 

[Dave G]

The path to Salvation is found by men.

Romans 3:10-12.
Psalms 10:4.
Psalms 14:1-3.

We're not even looking for it, except He draws us ( John 6:44 ) and causes us to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ).

 

[Revmitchell]

[1Co 1:18 KJV] 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

This verse compares worldly thinking vs. Spiritual thinking which can be done by saved people as well. It is not a comparison between the lost and the saved

 

[MB]

Both Jew and Greek had nothing to do with Jesus did not believe. Both Jew and Greek did believe.
It seems you claim that human reasoning determined whether one believed and one didn't. While I claim that belief is appointed to some by God's Supremacy over all His creation.
Acts 13:48 would agree with me.
"When the Gentiles heard this, they were began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
Acts 2 shares something similar with the Jews.
"Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the apostles, Brothers, what should we do?"
"So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about 3000 souls."
It seems that God is supremely at work to save those whom He wills.

It may seem that way to you but the truth is those who are saved choose to give up the rebellion and follow Christ. With out faith there is no Grace because ther is no faith for grace to come through.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Salvation in this verse is the gift
MB

 

[Dave G]

Save you nonsense for someone else. I will not respond to people who tell me I'm not saved because I'm not a Calvinist

Have I ever said that you had to be a "Calvinist" to be saved?

I'm not a "Calvinist"...
John Calvin and his teachings are not the issue here, and I don't follow men or what they have taught.
I follow Jesus Christ and His every word.

The very words of God, are what's being discussed here.

A person is saved because God chooses to save them...not because they chose God.
Again, if you truly believe on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, then it's not because of your choice...it's because of God's choice of you ( Psalms 65:4, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:28-30, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

It may seem that way to you but the truth is those who are saved choose to give up the rebellion and follow Christ.

From our perspective, I agree.
We chose Him and gave up our rebellion.

But, God's word says Who is behind that choice ( Psalms 65:4 ).
Read it carefully...blessed is the man whom God chooses, and causes to approach.

Salvation in this verse is the gift

It could be...and it could just as easily be faith, or even "by grace are ye saved through faith".
I'll go with both of those, as I see that faith in Christ and His finished work for me is something I never had before 1978.

However, according to these:

John 3:27.
1 Corinthians 4:7.
James 1:17.

I never had anything good, except it comes from God.
That includes salvation, which is a gift.

Every good thing I have, comes from Him.

 

[Dave G]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

By grace.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done ( Titus 3:5-6 )...like belief.
Unbelief is a sin ( John 16:9 ), while belief is a work of God ( John 6:29 ) and a work of righteousness.
Biblical faith is delivered to the saints ( Jude 1:3 ) not to all men ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
Therefore, your faith is a gift from God ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ) and a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ).

I suggest focusing on the mercy and kindness of God, and not on what "we can do" to gain His favor...
Which cannot be done, anyway.

He will not be beholden to rebellious men ( Romans 4:4, Romans 9:14-18, Romans 11:5-6 ).
In fact, He will not allow men to dictate anything that He does ( Daniel 4:35 ).


I encourage you to give God the credit, where credit is due, MB.
He could have decided not to save you, and then where would you be?

Not seeking Him, not seeking His righteousness, not caring about your sin and how it offends Him, and definitely not caring that you need a Saviour.


May God bless you richly, sir, both in knowledge and grace.

 

[Dave G]

That would be a mishandling of scripture.

Again,
How is it a mishandling of Scripture to tell someone what you see ( "exegesis", one's opinion of the very words ), verse by verse?

Is there something in God's word that tells us, as believers, not to lay things out, in-depth, by what the words state?
The very words ( 2 Timothy 3:16-17, not by "systematic theologies" and the teachings and commentaries of men ), are where we get those doctrines and those valuable truths from, are they not?

Then please develop the passage, word by word and verse by verse, if you are so inclined.
That is what this thread is all about.
If you cannot or will not, how is anyone who views your assertions going to be able to clearly see where you get your views from?

Now, if you've already done that, then I must have missed those threads...

Threads like this, where a verse-by-verse rendition is developed out in the open, for everyone to see.
If this is the case, please provide a link to the thread(s) in question where you have developed your answers, verse-by-verse.
Personally, I'm very curious as to why you find it impossible to do, especially with anything having to do with John 6.


Given that you are a pastor:

Any teacher of God's word should be able to stand up and tell those to whom he is teaching, exactly where and why they find the answers that they do... and respond to questions asked of them, to the listener's satisfaction.

Wouldn't you agree?
All I'm asking, is for you to do what any of the Lord's teachers should be able to do.

Before you think that I'm being "overly dramatic", please understand what a very serious position that a teacher of God's word, finds himself in ( James 3:1 ).
Being a teacher or a pastor is not only a very sobering responsibility, but one in which the Lord will hold that person accountable for doing it correctly or incorrectly.

For example, those that preach a false gospel are pronounced as accursed, according to Galatians 1.
It is definitely not a position that one should step into or treat, lightly.


I await your reply, sir.

 

[Particular]

It may seem that way to you but the truth is those who are saved choose to give up the rebellion and follow Christ. With out faith there is no Grace because ther is no faith for grace to come through.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Salvation in this verse is the gift
MB

Well, I guess you have to ignore all the verses that tell us God chose us. Plus, you have to ignore Ephesians 2:1-7, which leads you to verses 8 and 9 so that you are able to understand that God must first make you alive with Christ before you respond in faith.

 

[Reformed1689]

Calvies like doing that especially Dr. White but it is a inferior way to handle scripture and in fact is taught against in most Seminaries.

Of course this is not true of those who believe in the Doctrines of Grace as a whole. Don't lump everyone into one pot please.

 

[Particular]

So only parts of the Bible can be applied to us today and John 6 is one of those passages that does not apply?
When Jesus says, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day," that doesn't apply to us?
When Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day," Jesus is not speaking to us? It has no application for us?

I did not say that

Here's what you said:

"John 6 is not talking to everyone nor is it implied or have application that way.

People do consider the gospel foolish but that was not my point."

How is John 6 not talking to everyone?

I can only go by what you have said. If I misunderstand, correct my misunderstanding of your position.

 

[Particular]

Save you nonsense for someone else. I will not respond to people who tell me I'm not saved because I'm not a Calvinist

Where did Dave say you're not saved because you're not a Calvinist? I may have missed it, but I don't recall reading it.

 

[Particular]

This verse compares worldly thinking vs. Spiritual thinking which can be done by saved people as well. It is not a comparison between the lost and the saved

Really? Because the passage sure seems to compare between those who are saved and those who aren't.

1 Corinthians 1:18-21
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

 

[Revmitchell]

Here's what you said:

"John 6 is not talking to everyone nor is it implied or have application that way.

People do consider the gospel foolish but that was not my point."

How is John 6 not talking to everyone?

I can only go by what you have said. If I misunderstand, correct my misunderstanding of your position.

Good grief

There is nothing I said that could or should be interpreted as:

"So only parts of the Bible can be applied to us today and John 6 is one of those passages that does not apply?"

Especially since I added "that way" to my statement. What in the world do you think "that way" means? Do you really think "that way" could be interpreted as "does not apply?" I did not say "does not apply" I said does not apply that way". Do you get the difference? Honestly I don't think you are that dumb. I think you are working to twist my words. Enough.

 

[Revmitchell]

Really? Because the passage sure seems to compare between those who are saved and those who aren't.

1 Corinthians 1:18-21
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

I find you have dealt with me dishonestly I am done with you.

 

[Particular]

Good grief

There is nothing I said that could or should be interpreted as:

"So only parts of the Bible can be applied to us today and John 6 is one of those passages that does not apply?"

Especially since I added "that way" to my statement. What in the world do you think "that way" means? Do you really think "that way" could be interpreted as "does not apply?" I did not say "does not apply" I said does not apply that way". Do you get the difference? Honestly I don't think you are that dumb. I think you are working to twist my words. Enough.

Perhaps you need to speak more clearly. I cannot read your mind and you seem to assume I can follow your statement when it is quite vague.
Am I asking too much of you?

 

[Particular]

I find you have dealt with me dishonestly I am done with you.

What???

I'm sorry, I do not know how I have been dishonest with you.
What is clear I that you are saying something that I am missing when you speak. This is why I continue to ask you to be clear and specific. It occurs to me that you may be intentionally vague, but for what reason I do not know.