• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Choice: God or Man - exegete John 6:32-40

Status
Not open for further replies.

Particular

Well-Known Member
If you are going to quote me quote me in its entirety. I said how we acquire faith is irrelevant to what it is. And everyone can hear the gospel.
We disagree on who can hear the gospel. Many consider the gospel to be foolishness upon hearing it. This is because we humans are naturally in rebellion against the gospel. We see no need for being saved. "Saved from what? I am my own castle." Only God can give ears to the deaf and sight to the blind.
So, no one can hear the gospel until God grants them hearing. No one can see the Light until God grants them sight. This truth is evidenced from Genesis on forward throughout all the Bible.
Our disagreement, it seems is on your last sentence. You declare that everyone can hear the gospel. I declare that only those whom God opens their ears to the gospel can hear it and believe.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
We disagree on who can hear the gospel. Many consider the gospel to be foolishness upon hearing it. This is because we humans are naturally in rebellion against the gospel. We see no need for being saved. "Saved from what? I am my own castle." Only God can give ears to the deaf and sight to the blind.

This is what the gospel is for.

So, no one can hear the gospel until God grants them hearing. No one can see the Light until God grants them sight. This truth is evidenced from Genesis on forward throughout all the Bible.
Our disagreement, it seems is on your last sentence. You declare that everyone can hear the gospel. I declare that only those whom God opens their ears to the gospel can hear it and believe.

There is no scripture that supports that
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Faith is what God tells us it is.
I looked up what God tells us. I notice that Jesus is the author and the perfector of faith. So... it's not what we feel.

Hebrews 11:1-40 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them. By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:1-2 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Faith is still believing and that is what all this says. I agree with this passage. Where does it say it isn't believing? Faith is a mighty thing. Faith saves.
Is faith given to men after regeneration?. or does man have the ability to believe in any thing he wishes?
MB
 

MB

Well-Known Member
We disagree on who can hear the gospel. Many consider the gospel to be foolishness upon hearing it. This is because we humans are naturally in rebellion against the gospel. We see no need for being saved. "Saved from what? I am my own castle." Only God can give ears to the deaf and sight to the blind.
So, no one can hear the gospel until God grants them hearing. No one can see the Light until God grants them sight. This truth is evidenced from Genesis on forward throughout all the Bible.
Our disagreement, it seems is on your last sentence. You declare that everyone can hear the gospel. I declare that only those whom God opens their ears to the gospel can hear it and believe.
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
What people do you think Paul was speaking about?
MB
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Only God can give ears to the deaf and sight to the blind.
So, no one can hear the gospel until God grants them hearing. No one can see the Light until God grants them sight. This truth is evidenced from Genesis on forward throughout all the Bible.
Our disagreement, it seems is on your last sentence. You declare that everyone can hear the gospel. I declare that only those whom God opens their ears to the gospel can hear it and believe.
There is no scripture that supports that
Psalms 65:4.

Matthew 11:25-27.
Matthew 11:15.
Matthew 13:9.
Matthew 13:10-11.
Matthew 13:43.
Matthew 16:13-17.
Mark 4:23.
Luke 8:8.
Luke 14:35.

Romans 8:5-8.
1 Corinthians 1:18-31.
1 Corinthians 2:14-16.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4.
1 Peter 2:9.

Revelation 2:7.
Revelation 2:11.
Revelation 3:6.
Revelation 3:13.
Revelation 13:9.

To believe the word of God, one must be "of God" ( John 8:47 ).
To follow Christ and "hear" His voice, one must be a sheep ( John 10:27 ).
To believe on Christ, one must be first, given to Him by His Father ( John 6:64-65 ), and Christ only gives eternal life to those that were given to Him by His Father ( John 17:2 ).
To believe, one must be first, ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

It is a work of God to believe on Christ ( John 6:29 ), not a work of men.
Those that do not believe, are not His sheep ( John 10:26 ).
It is given to believers, to believe ( Philippians 1:29 ).

I encourage you to read them again...
Plenty of things that God says, support that.
 
Last edited:

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Psalms 65:4.

Matthew 11:25-27.
Matthew 11:15.
Matthew 13:9.
Matthew 13:10-11.
Matthew 13:43.
Matthew 16:13-17.
Mark 4:23.
Luke 8:8.
Luke 14:35.

Romans 8:5-8.
1 Corinthians 1:18-31.
1 Corinthians 2:14-16.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4.
1 Peter 2:9.

Revelation 2:7.
Revelation 2:11.
Revelation 3:6.
Revelation 3:13.
Revelation 13:9.

Im not going to address each verse but they do not say what you suggest. It is reading a predetermined doctrine into them.
 

Particular

Well-Known Member
This is what the gospel is for.



There is no scripture that supports that
There is scripture and experience that supports the fact that people consider the gospel to be foolishness until God gives them ears to hear. It is implied by Jesus in John 6 when he declares that all whom the Father has given him will come.
 

Particular

Well-Known Member
Faith is still believing and that is what all this says. I agree with this passage. Where does it say it isn't believing? Faith is a mighty thing. Faith saves.
Is faith given to men after regeneration?. or does man have the ability to believe in any thing he wishes?
MB
A man can have an opinion about anything. That doesn't make it faith. You are making faith out to be nothing more than an opinion, based on feelings. I disagree with your definition of faith.
Faith is an assurance that what cannot be seen is still true. It is authored by Jesus and it is finished by Jesus (Hebrews 12:1-3).
 

Particular

Well-Known Member
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
What people do you think Paul was speaking about?
MB
What does the text say?

The fact is that Paul is imprisoned in Rome because both Jew and Gentile refused to believe. Neither Felix nor Festus believed Paul, though he shared the gospel.
The Jewish leaders in Rome did not believe and Paul tells them why. Paul does not say that every Gentile will believe. If that would have been the case, Paul would not be in a Roman prison. Every Gentile would have believed. But they didn't. Why? Because only those whom God gives ears to hear will believe. That is why it is significant that Luke tells earlier in the book of Acts that "those who were appointed to salvation" came to faith.

Acts 28:17 After three days he called together the local leaders of the Jews, and when they had gathered, he said to them, “Brothers, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

Acts 28:22-28,30-31
But we desire to hear from you what your views are, for with regard to this sect we know that everywhere it is spoken against.” When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. And some were convinced by what he said, but others disbelieved. And disagreeing among themselves, they departed after Paul had made one statement: “The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet: “‘Go to this people, and say, “You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.” For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’ Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen.” He lived there two whole years at his own expense, and welcomed all who came to him, proclaiming the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness and without hindrance.
 

Particular

Well-Known Member
Im not going to address each verse but they do not say what you suggest. It is reading a predetermined doctrine into them.
This is precisely why I asked us to exegete John 6. Unless we go, line by line and verse by verse through the scriptures, we cannot know if a person is simply prooftexting a pet doctrine. Scripture, in context, will guide our theology.
I would love nothing more than to go through passages and exegete them in their context.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
There is scripture and experience that supports the fact that people consider the gospel to be foolishness until God gives them ears to hear. It is implied by Jesus in John 6 when he declares that all whom the Father has given him will come.

John 6 is not talking to everyone nor is it implied or have application that way. People do consider the gospel foolish but that was not my point.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Im not going to address each verse but they do not say what you suggest.
From my perspective, you don't have to address any of it.

At this point, given the interaction that we've had over the past year or so, I would have to say that it is your opinion ( and that of many others ) that they do not say what I think that they say.
It is also my opinion ( and that of many others ) that they mean exactly what they say.
But to make the assertion that they do not say what I think that they say, is to tell me, with authority, that your view is correct.

That is, of course, your prerogative, and both "sides" do this.

With respect, I'll teach them one way, and you're free to preach and teach them however you wish.
We both stand before God and will answer to Him.:Cautious
It is reading a predetermined doctrine into them.
I believe that I've already answered this charge many times, Mark.

I get what I get because I see it saying something that you, apparently, do not.
I see each word as developing a doctrine that gives God all the glory for saving someone, and stripping men of any avenue of approach to Him and His grace, unless He decides to bestow that favor upon someone.

You don't seem to see this.


I guess we'll have to leave it at that.:)
 
Last edited:

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is precisely why I asked us to exegete John 6. Unless we go, line by line and verse by verse through the scriptures, we cannot know if a person is simply prooftexting a pet doctrine. Scripture, in context, will guide our theology.
I would love nothing more than to go through passages and exegete them in their context.

John 6 like any other scripture is understood by other scripture, before it, after it and way down the line. The narrow set you gave made that impossible.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
John 6 like any other scripture is understood by other scripture, before it, after it and way down the line.
I agree.
Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4.
The narrow set you gave made that impossible.
Please reference post # 33.

I didn't find it impossible.
Some years ago I would have had some difficulty, but now, by God's grace, I do not.

Scripture defines and "interprets" Scripture.

You saw what I did with the text...
It's not about man-made "systematic theology", and it never has been.
From my perspective, it's all about seeing the very words on the page, and understanding them.

What, if any parts of post # 33, do you disagree with and why?

I'm curious as to how you see each and every "verse" in the requested passage and how they all relate one to another.
In other words, when you read the text, what does each verse say to you, in your own words and step-by-step?

That is what the OP is asking.
 
Last edited:

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Please reference post # 33.

I didn't find it impossible.
Some years ago I would have had some difficulty, but now, by God's grace, I do not.

Scripture defines and "interprets" Scripture.

You saw what I did with the text...
It's not about man-made "systematic theology", and it never has been.
From my perspective, it's all about seeing the very words on the page, and understanding them.

What, if any parts of post # 33, do you disagree with and why?

I'm curious as to how you see each and every "verse" in the requested passage and how they all relate one to another.
In other words, when you read the text, what does each verse say to you, in your own words and step-by-step?

That is what the OP is asking.

That would be a mishandling of scripture.
 

Particular

Well-Known Member
John 6 is not talking to everyone nor is it implied or have application that way. People do consider the gospel foolish but that was not my point.

So only parts of the Bible can be applied to us today and John 6 is one of those passages that does not apply?
When Jesus says, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day," that doesn't apply to us?
When Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day," Jesus is not speaking to us? It has no application for us?
 

MB

Well-Known Member
What does the text say?

The fact is that Paul is imprisoned in Rome because both Jew and Gentile refused to believe. Neither Felix nor Festus believed Paul, though he shared the gospel.
The Jewish leaders in Rome did not believe and Paul tells them why. Paul does not say that every Gentile will believe.
Not even all the disciples believed Judas certainly also Thomas had doubts. They were both chosen and drawn yet they had doubts. But these are Jews and they were blinded. Act's 28:28 does say that the Gentiles will hear the gospel. People can choose to believe or not. While in the doctrine you hold they have no choice. They don't have any faith to believe until they are regenerated. Our lord just does not save unbelievers. and afterwards make them believe No where in scripture does it ever say He does. If you think I'm wrong prove it with scripture. There is no such thing in scripture as forced Salvation. Salvation is a gift it is not something that you get by being elect. Judas was elect and it didn't give him any special consideration. Election does not mean any thing with out the person having faith in Jesus Christ.

If that would have been the case, Paul would not be in a Roman prison. Every Gentile would have believed. But they didn't. Why? Because only those whom God gives ears to hear will believe. That is why it is significant that Luke tells earlier in the book of Acts that "those who were appointed to salvation" came to faith.
Acts 13:48 KJV does not fit the passage. Here is why.
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;
This is from young's literal translation and is proof the KJV translation of this verse is in error. Greens Greek to English also says the same thing.
As well as other versions
Acts 28:17 After three days he called together the local leaders of the Jews, and when they had gathered, he said to them, “Brothers, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
This verse above proves Paul was speaking to the Jews and the Bible says they were blinded
because they rejected there messiah.Most are still blind to the truth

Acts 28:22-28,30-31
But we desire to hear from you what your views are, for with regard to this sect we know that everywhere it is spoken against.” When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. And some were convinced by what he said, but others disbelieved. And disagreeing among themselves, they departed after Paul had made one statement: “The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet: “‘Go to this people, and say, “You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.” For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’ Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen.” He lived there two whole years at his own expense, and welcomed all who came to him, proclaiming the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness and without hindrance
.
There is nothing in all of this part of acts that says the Gentiles cannot hear. There is nothing here to suggest that any cannot hear. Hearing the gospel is not a guarantee of Salvation. Rebellion sends many to Hell.
MB
 

Particular

Well-Known Member
John 6 like any other scripture is understood by other scripture, before it, after it and way down the line. The narrow set you gave made that impossible.
I agree. Scripture interprets scripture. I endorse us digging in to scripture and seeing the whole in context.
In that light, I find it impossible not to subject myself to the Supremacy of Christ Jesus over all aspects of my life.
 

Wesley Briggman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Im not going to address each verse but they do not say what you suggest. It is reading a predetermined doctrine into them.

[1Co 1:18 KJV] 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
While in the doctrine you hold they have no choice.
There's a difference between not having any choice, and we, as men already making our choice to reject Him and His words, day after day.

The latter is what God's word teaches, not the former.
Rebellion, against Him and His words.
There is nothing here to suggest they any cannot hear.
There are many Scriptures that declare that men hear because they have "ears to hear", and do not because they do not.

Please see post # 105.
Hearing the gospel is not a guarantee of Salvation.
"Hearing" the Gospel with born again "ears" is the guarantee of eternal life ( 1 Corinthians 1:18, Ephesians 1:13 ).

But, hearing it physically, outside of the Holy Spirit's calling, is not.
Unless someone is "called", they are unable to "hear" His words.

Only those that are "of God" are able to "hear" ( John 8:47 ).
Those that are not, do not "hear".
Rebellion sends many to Hell.
Rebellion, which is what all of us are stuck in, willfully, is what sends all of us to Hell, except for God's grace and mercy ( Titus 3:5-6 ).
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top