Chosen in Him Before the Foundation of the world

[Dave G]

The point is the scriptures do not say this happened at all .

Actually it does.
"Keep studying", as a former pastor once told me.

You probably believe everyone in the old testament was saved the same way as today , that they were born again

Yes, I do.
Why?
" Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. " ( John 3:3 ).

Yet, Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the kingdom of God ( Matthew 8:11 ).

The new birth happened the same way in the Old testament, only the Holy Spirit did not indwell and comfort people like He does today.
Men still believed God and put their trust in His words, because He chose them and caused them to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ).
Even David knew this.

Good afternoon to you sir.

 

[1689Dave]

We are only Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ) question is : When do we become in Him ? I believe this is not before we are born . We are only in him when we believe.

Eternal life has no beginning or end. I was always saved in God's mind and he ordered my steps accordingly.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Actually it does.
"Keep studying", as a former pastor once told me.

Yes, I do.
Why?
" Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. " ( John 3:3 ).

Yet, Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the kingdom of God ( Matthew 8:11 ).

The new birth happened the same way in the Old testament, only the Holy Spirit did not indwell and comfort people like He does today.
Men still believed God and put their trust in His words, because He chose them and caused them to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ).
Even David knew this.

Good afternoon to you sir.

Abraham for example did not recieve the New birth because Jesus had not Died yet . He would not be able to be in heaven until all sins had been redeemed . No one can see Heaven until Jesus had redeemed the entire cosmos ..including all the sins that the old sacrifices temporarily were covered but not yet redeemed . Jesus is telling nicodemus that he cannot enter the kingdom unless he was born again . Calvernists place the emphasis on the ' seeing part because they believe in regeneration precedes faith, which I.ll assume you also believe ( thus making this Calvernist bingo nearly complete lol . Or it really is a coincidence that so far you line up with the 5 points of calvernism. With no influence and just reading the bible I will be amazed lol .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Eternal life has no beginning or end. I was always saved in God's mind and he ordered my steps accordingly.

Notice in 2 thes 2 .13 please read again and ask what ' beginning ' ? in the beginning when ? it doesnt say before the foundation of the world does it ? you see ' beginning and somehow imagine that's the beginning of time .
13¶But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
the ' beginning is when Paul first preached the Gosepl to them. they are fearful. They believe they have possibly missed the Lords return because of a false letter . They are suffering intense persecution..So paul comforts them by reminding them from the beginning they are going to be ok they are chosen ( for service) to salvation BY SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRT AND BELIEF OF THE TRUTH .
in other words fear not your ( final ) salvation is secure through when ( in the beginning you believed the truth and were sanctified ( set apart) and chosen for this purpose after you believed.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Eternal life has no beginning or end. I was always saved in God's mind and he ordered my steps accordingly.

In Gods mind ? no where in the bible does it say you were selected in Gods mind before you existed to be saved .
notice here what the bible says your position was before you were saved ( an enemy of God and lost .
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

[Barry Johnson]

In Gods mind ? no where in the bible does it say you were selected in Gods mind before you existed to be saved .
notice here what the bible says your position was before you were saved ( an enemy of God and lost .
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

no verse says anything about you being saved in the mind of God . That's gnostisicm .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Actually it does.
"Keep studying", as a former pastor once told me.

Yes, I do.
Why?
" Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. " ( John 3:3 ).

Yet, Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the kingdom of God ( Matthew 8:11 ).

The new birth happened the same way in the Old testament, only the Holy Spirit did not indwell and comfort people like He does today.
Men still believed God and put their trust in His words, because He chose them and caused them to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ).
Even David knew this.

Good afternoon to you sir.

No one was sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption in the old testament ( the NEW birth )

 

[Barry Johnson]

Eternal life has no beginning or end. I was always saved in God's mind and he ordered my steps accordingly.

Eternal life ( in the sense Jesus meant ) had to be recieved. This life is in Jesus . Thus all those ' in Christ ' have eternal life and this life cannot be lost or taken from you. OSAS

 

[Barry Johnson]

Notice in 2 thes 2 .13 please read again and ask what ' beginning ' ? in the beginning when ? it doesnt say before the foundation of the world does it ? you see ' beginning and somehow imagine that's the beginning of time .
13¶But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
the ' beginning is when Paul first preached the Gosepl to them. they are fearful. They believe they have possibly missed the Lords return because of a false letter . They are suffering intense persecution..So paul comforts them by reminding them from the beginning they are going to be ok they are chosen ( for service) to salvation BY SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRT AND BELIEF OF THE TRUTH .
in other words fear not your ( final ) salvation is secure through when ( in the beginning you believed the truth and were sanctified ( set apart) and chosen for this purpose after you believed.

The key word is ' Through '

 

[Barry Johnson]

The key word is ' Through in 2 thes 2 . 13 '

 

[Barry Johnson]

Actually it does.
"Keep studying", as a former pastor once told me.

Yes, I do.
Why?
" Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. " ( John 3:3 ).

Yet, Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the kingdom of God ( Matthew 8:11 ).

The new birth happened the same way in the Old testament, only the Holy Spirit did not indwell and comfort people like He does today.
Men still believed God and put their trust in His words, because He chose them and caused them to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ).
Even David knew this.

Good afternoon to you
Before the Cross where was Abraham , issac and Jacob ? in heaven ? before there sins were redeemed ? No one had there sins redeemed before Jesus redeemed them at the cross ..Abraham had his sins temporarily taken away but all the sins before the cross had not been redeemed prior to the cross. other wise Jesus did not need bother to come and die on a cross . All the old testament sacrifices were not able to take away sins permanently..Jesus does this on the cross then and only then was Abraham redeemed .

 

[Barry Johnson]

We are not Known in any biblical sense ( intimately wise ) until we are saved and in Him .
8¶Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4
notice we are known of God after we are saved . Before then we are lost . So the idea you were 'known of God 'in any biblical sense is another nod to calvernism and not scripture . Accidentally or other wise you hold to the 5 points of calvernism which is distinct and not found in any other system.

 

[Van]

We are only Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ) question is : When do we become in Him ? I believe this is not before we are born . We are only in him when we believe.

Hi Barry, if you are willing, let us consider Ephesians 1:4. It is addressed to born anew believers, those who have been placed spiritually into Christ. This is demonstrated by Ephesians 1:1 because "saints" are those who have been set apart in Christ, and are said to be "in Christ.

Verse 3 says that as born anew believers who have been placed in Christ, we have been blessed with "every spiritual blessing." Starting in verse 4, Paul lists the blessings.

The first blessing is that God chose us in Him before creation. Now a great many people believe this refers to being chosen individually. However the verse does not say God chose us before creation. It throws in the phrase "in Him." Recall that the pre-incarnate Word was chosen to be the Lamb of God, the Redeemer through His blood, before creation, 1 Peter 1:18-20. One view is that when God chose His Redeemer individually before creation, He also chose corporately those His Redeemer would redeem. Thus He chose us in Him before creation.

But why not the other view, He chose us individually? This view is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10. If we had been chosen individually we would not have been "once not a people" because we would have always been "a chosen people." And since by being chosen, we obtained mercy, we could not have been without mercy. But scripture which cannot be broken says we had not received mercy, so we could not have been chosen individually.

There is more evidence for the view that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election. If we had been chosen before creation, before we existed, before we heard the gospel and put our trust fully in Christ, why does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 say we were chosen for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. If we had already been chosen individually, there would be no need to choose us after we had "faith in the truth!"

So the answer to your question is we are placed in Christ during our physical lifetime, after God credits (or not) our faith in Christ as righteousness. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24.

 

[Van]

Hi Barry, post 33 was written in response to your opening post, I now see that you seem to have studied the topic. Sorry for duplicating so many of your valid observations from scripture.

 

[Sai]

I agree.

I'd say that your next statement is the answer to this question...

Again, I agree.

However, because God chose a person in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ) that choice is unerringly carried out in a person's lifetime ( 2 Peter 3:9 ) when God places one of His elect in front of the preaching of His word:

" For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." ( 1 Corinthians 1:21 ).

So, "point of belief" is when the Holy Spirit indwells the believer ( Ephesians 1:13 ) and seals them unto the day of redemption ( Ephesians 4:30 ).
Admittedly, I've had to re-think this over the years, and I actually agree that a person is not "in Christ", or actually in the body of Christ until the Spirit does His work and His elect are called in this life.
I see this when I read of Paul stating here:

" Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." ( Romans 16:7).


As for their names being written in the Book of Life?
That is from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 17:8 ).

Christ's sheep have an inheritance prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:34 ).
It was not prepared for anyone else but His sheep, His elect.
Christ was foreordained to come and offer Himself on the cross from the foundation of the world ( 1 Peter 1:20 ) for them and no one else ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ).

Why does one believe?
Because they are Christ's sheep ( Matthew 13:10-11, John 6:37-44, John 6:65, John 8:43-47, John 17:2, Philippians 1:29 ).
Why does one not believe?
Because they are not "of" His sheep ( John 10:26 ).

Why does one reject the preaching of the cross and think that it is foolishness?
Because they are of "them that perish".
Why does one believe the preaching of the cross and to them it is the power of God?
Because they are saved ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

The Gospel truly is the power of God to everyone that believes ( Romans 1:16 )...
But there is a reason that we have believed on Christ, and God's word answers it.

Therefore, one who is chosen in Him before the foundation of the world and chosen to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), truly is the recipient of the greatest gift known to man:


An everlasting relationship with a God who loved them, even when they were dead in trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-10 ).

One work of the Holy Spirit is the ministry of separation. The elect is under the ministry of separation thereby guaranteed of hearing the gospel at which time he becomes regenerated.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Hi Barry, if you are willing, let us consider Ephesians 1:4. It is addressed to born anew believers, those who have been placed spiritually into Christ. This is demonstrated by Ephesians 1:1 because "saints" are those who have been set apart in Christ, and are said to be "in Christ.

Verse 3 says that as born anew believers who have been placed in Christ, we have been blessed with "every spiritual blessing." Starting in verse 4, Paul lists the blessings.

The first blessing is that God chose us in Him before creation. Now a great many people believe this refers to being chosen individually. However the verse does not say God chose us before creation. It throws in the phrase "in Him." Recall that the pre-incarnate Word was chosen to be the Lamb of God, the Redeemer through His blood, before creation, 1 Peter 1:18-20. One view is that when God chose His Redeemer individually before creation, He also chose corporately those His Redeemer would redeem. Thus He chose us in Him before creation.

But why not the other view, He chose us individually? This view is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10. If we had been chosen individually we would not have been "once not a people" because we would have always been "a chosen people." And since by being chosen, we obtained mercy, we could not have been without mercy. But scripture which cannot be broken says we had not received mercy, so we could not have been chosen individually.

There is more evidence for the view that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election. If we had been chosen before creation, before we existed, before we heard the gospel and put our trust fully in Christ, why does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 say we were chosen for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. If we had already been chosen individually, there would be no need to choose us after we had "faith in the truth!"

So the answer to your question is we are placed in Christ during our physical lifetime, after God credits (or not) our faith in Christ as righteousness. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24.

Again I appreciate your response. This is good bible study . Thank you .
Ok from the bible itself we know that before being in him ephesians 2 makes clear that we were outside of Christ , lost and without hope. So we know from the scriptures that no one is in Jesus christ until they are placed in him . We can also see in Ephesians how we get in Christ
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
So this is the only means of being in Him .
As for the blessings we can see these only occur once a person becomes in him .
We see all over that the person who is not in him is certainly not blessed with spiritual blessing in heavenly places .
What we should expect to see if your idea is true is verses that say ' we were chosen to be placed into Jesus before the foundation of the world ' .
There are words in the bible that with a certain persuasion folks use to steer in a particular direction : Chosen , ordained , elect , predestined ect . But for example the word Elect is to service . Its always in context to doing something. It's never to be saved . Context is key here . Again in 2 thes 2 . 13 in context this is about reassuring believers that they haven't missed the return of christ and there not set aside to suffer the tribulation. Gods methods for salvation in the church age are through believing the truth and sanctification of the spirit ( as opposed to circumcision and the sacrifices ect ) . So from the beginning ( when Paul brought the Gosepl to them ) hearing that by believing the truth and sanctification of the spirit ( set apart by the Holy spirit) they needing reminding that they are on course and they are not of those left to destruction.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Again I appreciate your response. This is good bible study . Thank you .
Ok from the bible itself we know that before being in him ephesians 2 makes clear that we were outside of Christ , lost and without hope. So we know from the scriptures that no one is in Jesus christ until they are placed in him . We can also see in Ephesians how we get in Christ
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
So this is the only means of being in Him .
As for the blessings we can see these only occur once a person becomes in him .
We see all over that the person who is not in him is certainly not blessed with spiritual blessing in heavenly places .
What we should expect to see if your idea is true is verses that say ' we were chosen to be placed into Jesus before the foundation of the world ' .
There are words in the bible that with a certain persuasion folks use to steer in a particular direction : Chosen , ordained , elect , predestined ect . But for example the word Elect is to service . Its always in context to doing something. It's never to be saved . Context is key here . Again in 2 thes 2 . 13 in context this is about reassuring believers that they haven't missed the return of christ and there not set aside to suffer the tribulation. Gods methods for salvation in the church age are through believing the truth and sanctification of the spirit ( as opposed to circumcision and the sacrifices ect ) . So from the beginning ( when Paul brought the Gosepl to them ) hearing that by believing the truth and sanctification of the spirit ( set apart by the Holy spirit) they needing reminding that they are on course and they are not of those left to destruction.

So 2 thes is a reminder to those who fear that they have missed the boat that from the beginning that they have been 'chosen ' ( service , to go through this persecution) but they are of those that believed the truth and sanctification of the spirit. And are thus not destined for wrath .
1 thes 5
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11¶Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
notice paul is having to remind them of there security..So the context of 2 thes 1 with the clear verses about how we get in Jesus christ are thus . We are placed into Jesus christ by believing the truth and sanctification of the spirit. ( sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption) There are too many clear verses that state how we are saved in the new testament to be confused . There is a need by Paul to remind believers that in spite of suffering they are secure . 'Nothing can separate ' Dont we need this at times also ? . If it said from the beginning before the creation of the world then you might have a point . The clear verses explain the context.

 

[Barry Johnson]

So 2 thes is a reminder to those who fear that they have missed the boat that from the beginning that they have been 'chosen ' ( service , to go through this persecution) but they are of those that believed the truth and sanctification of the spirit. And are thus not destined for wrath .
1 thes 5
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11¶Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
notice paul is having to remind them of there security..So the context of 2 thes 1 with the clear verses about how we get in Jesus christ are thus . We are placed into Jesus christ by believing the truth and sanctification of the spirit. ( sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption) There are too many clear verses that state how we are saved in the new testament to be confused . There is a need by Paul to remind believers that in spite of suffering they are secure . 'Nothing can separate ' Dont we need this at times also ? . If it said from the beginning before the creation of the world then you might have a point . The clear verses explain the context.

All blessings are only for believers. Believers are never in Him until they believe..No one has any blessings outside of Jesus . We can say however that God purposed before the foundation of the world that anyone who would believe the Gosepl would be sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption. That's good bible .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Hi Barry, post 33 was written in response to your opening post, I now see that you seem to have studied the topic. Sorry for duplicating so many of your valid observations from scripture.

That's ok , no problem . I appreciate the response .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Hi Barry, if you are willing, let us consider Ephesians 1:4. It is addressed to born anew believers, those who have been placed spiritually into Christ. This is demonstrated by Ephesians 1:1 because "saints" are those who have been set apart in Christ, and are said to be "in Christ.

Verse 3 says that as born anew believers who have been placed in Christ, we have been blessed with "every spiritual blessing." Starting in verse 4, Paul lists the blessings.

The first blessing is that God chose us in Him before creation. Now a great many people believe this refers to being chosen individually. However the verse does not say God chose us before creation. It throws in the phrase "in Him." Recall that the pre-incarnate Word was chosen to be the Lamb of God, the Redeemer through His blood, before creation, 1 Peter 1:18-20. One view is that when God chose His Redeemer individually before creation, He also chose corporately those His Redeemer would redeem. Thus He chose us in Him before creation.

But why not the other view, He chose us individually? This view is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10. If we had been chosen individually we would not have been "once not a people" because we would have always been "a chosen people." And since by being chosen, we obtained mercy, we could not have been without mercy. But scripture which cannot be broken says we had not received mercy, so we could not have been chosen individually.

There is more evidence for the view that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election. If we had been chosen before creation, before we existed, before we heard the gospel and put our trust fully in Christ, why does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 say we were chosen for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. If we had already been chosen individually, there would be no need to choose us after we had "faith in the truth!"

So the answer to your question is we are placed in Christ during our physical lifetime, after God credits (or not) our faith in Christ as righteousness. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24.

9¶But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. Always ask ' chosen for what '?. . The same for the word ' Elect ' . elected to do what ? The above verse 8immediately tells you what they have been chosen to do or be .
A saint is someone who has believed the Gosp

So 2 thes is a reminder to those who fear that they have missed the boat that from the beginning that they have been 'chosen ' ( service , to go through this persecution) but they are of those that believed the truth and sanctification of the spirit. And are thus not destined for wrath .
1 thes 5
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11¶Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
notice paul is having to remind them of there security..So the context of 2 thes 1 with the clear verses about how we get in Jesus christ are thus . We are placed into Jesus christ by believing the truth and sanctification of the spirit. ( sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption) There are too many clear verses that state how we are saved in the new testament to be confused . There is a need by Paul to remind believers that in spite of suffering they are secure . 'Nothing can separate ' Dont we need this at times also ? . If it said from the beginning before the creation of the world then you might have a point . The clear verses explain the context.