Christ payment was for all mankind

[Van]

I see Mr. Rippon claims those God chooses to harden are His elect. However, if being His elect refers to those chosen for salvation, then God never hardens His elect. Like so many Calvinist posts, the entire issue is one of obfuscation and misdirection. The real issue is God hardens hearts to prevent them from coming to Jesus. Thus the doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability is mistaken. Will this be addressed? Watch and learn.

 

[Van]

Martin, you are wasting your effort at obfuscation. Did anyone say Jesus is not the Savior? Nope. So yet again, you are engaging in misdirection to obfuscate the fact Jesus is our propitiation or means of salvation. We are saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Next you claim someone that is ransomed is therefore saved. Another fiction. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, yet all are not saved. Therefore your assertion is bogus.

Next, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches folks were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election. So you attempt to divert the discussion.

Folks, ask yourself how many other Calvinists deny Jesus is the means of salvation? Just read Romans 5:9 until it sinks in.

 

[Van]

Hi OR, you said I say, "that through HIS death on the Cross Jesus Christ paid the sin debt for every person." Please provide the reference to the post where I said this.

When is the sin debt removed? When He died, or when a person is placed spiritually in Christ and undergoes the circumcision of Christ. I say when a person is placed spiritually in Christ. Please stop with all this mischaracterization. Please address the issue. Christ died for all mankind, He tasted death for everyone, He is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

And OR, why did God harden hearts if they were unable, bound by sin, to seek God and trust in Christ? Please answer rather than deflect that question.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin, you are wasting your effort at obfuscation. Did anyone say Jesus is not the Savior? Nope. So yet again, you are engaging in misdirection to obfuscate the fact Jesus is our propitiation or means of salvation. We are saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Next you claim someone that is ransomed is therefore saved. Another fiction. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, yet all are not saved. Therefore your assertion is bogus.

Next, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches folks were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election. So you attempt to divert the discussion.

Folks, ask yourself how many other Calvinists deny Jesus is the means of salvation? Just read Romans 5:9 until it sinks in.

Romans 5:9. Great text! We are SAVED by Christ; He is not the means of salvation; He is our Saviour.

BTW, there's nothing conditional about being chosen. You're either chosen or you aren't. God chose sinners in eternity past. He gave them to the Son who has redeemed them by His shed blood. Faith in the truth is the means that is used.

I'm still waiting for all those texts you're going to give me showing that Christ is described in the Bible as 'means of salvation.'

Come along now! Don't be shy!

 

[Rippon]

I see Mr. Rippon claims those God chooses to harden are His elect. However, if being His elect refers to those chosen for salvation, then God never hardens His elect.

No, you made that very claim in post 82. I questioned that statement in post 92. In post 93 you denied what you said in post 82. I wanted you to come clean in post 95. I had asked you point blank if you still held to what you said in post 82.

Now, you are claiming I hold to it, which of course is nonsensical. You have to own up to your own words.

You are all over the place. You need to be honest and clear.

 

[wpe3bql]

According to Acts 13:48, we were ordained to eternal life.

Ephesians 1: 4-5 tells us that this ordaining was done before the world was even created because we were born spiritually dead (See Eph. 2:1-5ff).

Any sort of theology that claims otherwise runs completely against these NT verses and must therefore be rejected as heresy.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

According to Acts 13:48, we were ordained to eternal life.

Ephesians 1: 4-5 tells us that this ordaining was done before the world was even created because we were born spiritually dead (See Eph. 2:1-5ff).

Any sort of theology that claims otherwise runs completely against these NT verses and must therefore be rejected as heresy.

You are quite right in your theology, wpe3bql, but I am always very reluctant to use the H word. It has unfortunate connotations. If you changed that word to 'error,' I would be in full agreement with you.

 

[Van]

No, you made that very claim in post 82. I questioned that statement in post 92. In post 93 you denied what you said in post 82. I wanted you to come clean in post 95. I had asked you point blank if you still held to what you said in post 82.

Now, you are claiming I hold to it, which of course is nonsensical. You have to own up to your own words.

You are all over the place. You need to be honest and clear.

Folks, as you can see, Mr. Rippon is simply changing the subject, a tried and true method to avoid the truth that Calvinism is mistaken doctrine. He plays games with "elect" using the same term for those chosen to be hardened and those chosen for salvation. Fiddlesticks.

 

[Van]

Romans 5:9. Great text! We are SAVED by Christ; He is not the means of salvation; He is our Saviour.

BTW, there's nothing conditional about being chosen. You're either chosen or you aren't. God chose sinners in eternity past. He gave them to the Son who has redeemed them by His shed blood. Faith in the truth is the means that is used.

Folks, Martin denies being chosen for salvation through faith in the truth is a conditional election. Obvious obfuscation.

Next Martin claims Christ is not the means of salvation, which is blasphemy. Next, he seems unable to comprehend Romans 5:9 where Christ is the means by which we are saved from the wrath of God.

Note the immense effort by numerous Calvinists to deny Christ died for the whole world, that Christ tasted death for everyone, that Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all.

1) Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated mistaken by Matthew 23:13
2) Unconditional Election is demonstrated mistaken by 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
3) Limited Atonement as defined by Calvinism is demonstrated mistaken by 2 Peter 2:1
4) Irresistible Grace is demonstrated mistaken by Matthew 23:13.

 

[revmwc]

Yes, those that adopt the view of "freedom of the will" seem to justify their doctrine.

However, as the great Baptist theologian Johnathan Edwards points out in the hallmark work, "Freedom of the Will," there is no such ability outside those who are believers. See "Freedom of the Will" by Jonathan Edwards

One is either a believer (saved) or heathen and bound by sin and death. There is no true "freedom of choice/will" as far as to be saved or not. Once saved, the believer has TWO natures, one that rattles and battles against the new nature born of Christ. The believer may then be considered (as was Adam) with the true freedom of choice/will.

One other matter related to this idea of "freedom of the will:"

In my opinion, order to bypass the Calvinistic thinking and teaching, the more Armenian thinking folks had to develop an ethereal state; a place, in which God would lift a person and place a person, so that they could then of "freedom of the will" choose or reject Christ. In a sense, the person would become as that of Adam to choose between God and Death. I have heard some who would even make the point of conviction as a movement to that place by God so that the person could then know and choose.

Two points:

First, NO WHERE is this (preceding or prevenient grace) taught or even alluded too in Scriptures. It is a totally man constructed concept which has to rip Scriptures out of any relatively true meaning to support.

Second, because this "doctrine" is not Scripturally sound, and because it is a linchpin to many modernists who desire there to be "freedom of choice/will", it has been taught for decades in the classrooms of churches, schools and seminaries as if it were fact. Therefore, when confronted with the truth, many of that teaching react strongly and attempt to repulse the truth and often reject the truth in favor of a more comfortable and crowd pleasing, less harsh and judgmental, ear tickling teaching.

So, the question is, does one embrace the real truth, or does one cozy up to a lie that was formed as a convenience to cover and delude what was the truth?

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

So did the Israelites have freedom to choose whom they woukld serve or was Joshua mistaken?

Did they have absolute autonomy or did they have Power to Choose?

With this design, Joshua, by way of probation, emancipates the Jews, making them, as it were, their own masters, and free to choose what God they are willing to serve, not with the view of withdrawing them from the true religion, as they were already too much inclined to do, but to prevent them from making inconsiderate promises, which they would shortly after violate. For the real object of Joshua was, as we shall see, to renew and confirm the covenant which had already been made with God. Not without cause, therefore, does he give them freedom of choice, that they may not afterwards pretend to have been under compulsion, when they bound themselves by their own consent.

-First, That it is the will of God we should every one of us make religion our serious and deliberate choice. Let us state the matter impartially to ourselves, weigh things in an even balance, and then determine for that which we find to be really true and good. Let us resolve upon a life of serious godliness, not merely because we know no other way, but because really, upon search, we find no better. Secondly, That religion has so much self-evident reason and righteousness on its side that it may safely be referred to every man that allows himself a free thought either to choose or refuse it for the merits of the cause are so plain that no considerate man can do otherwise but choose it. The case is so clear that it determines itself. Perhaps Joshua designed, by putting them to their choice, thus to try if there were any among them who, upon so fair an occasion given, would show a coolness and indifference towards the service of God, whether they would desire time to consider and consult their friends before they gave in an answer, and if any such should appear he might set a mark upon them, and warn the rest to avoid them.

Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

So to seek God does one make a choice? If you seek Him, maybe you will and maybe you won't seek Him, isn't that making a choice?

1 Chronicles 22: 19 Now set your heart and your soul to seek the Lord your God; arise therefore, and build ye the sanctuary of the Lord God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and the holy vessels of God, into the house that is to be built to the name of the Lord.

They had to make a choice here to set their heart and soul to seek the Lord your God. They had to make a conscious choice did they not?

2 chronicles 15:15 And all Judah rejoiced at the oath: for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought him with their whole desire; and he was found of them: and the Lord gave them rest round about.

They "sought him with their whole desire" isn't that making a choice for Him?

Acts 17:26-30

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Again we see they are called upon to make a choice, they should seek the Lord that is ALL men every where to repent that is to seek the Lord and seek to repent before Him.


Finally we see

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Again they diligently seek Him and come to him that is they make a choice to come to Christ, each and every person form Every Where.

 

[revmwc]

Romans 5:9. Great text! We are SAVED by Christ; He is not the means of salvation; He is our Saviour.

BTW, there's nothing conditional about being chosen. You're either chosen or you aren't. God chose sinners in eternity past. He gave them to the Son who has redeemed them by His shed blood. Faith in the truth is the means that is used.

I'm still waiting for all those texts you're going to give me showing that Christ is described in the Bible as 'means of salvation.'

Come along now! Don't be shy!

All who would be saved were chosen before the foundation of the world, how were they chosen?

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God in His Omniscience Knew the choice a person would make in eternity past and therefore Predestinated them to be conformed to the image of His Son. Therefore they would be saved through the sacrificial blood of the Lamb of God that is Jesus Christ. By Christ blood God was appeased and all those who make a conscious choice for Christ will be saved. But god knew who would and who would not make that choice. He knew Who would and Who would reject Christ. Thus He Predestinated those whom He FOREKNEW the choice they would make for Christ.

 

[DHK]

I'm still waiting for all those texts you're going to give me showing that Christ is described in the Bible as 'means of salvation.'

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:48 I am that bread of life.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[Rippon]

Folks,

You have no "folks" Van.

as you can see, Mr. Rippon is simply changing the subject,

You had said in post 101 :"I see Mr. Rippon claims those God chooses to harden are His elect."

I demonstrated that your statement was a lie. You, in fact, made that absurd remark in post 82.

He plays games with "elect" using the same term for those chosen to be hardened and those chosen for salvation.

I have done no such thing. Please do not lie. The elect are the chosen. Those words are synonyms. The elect, or chosen ones are of course chosen for salvation.

God mercies some and leaves the rest hardened. If you disagree then you deny Scripture such as Romans 9:18.

These are two distinct groups. The elect certainly are not "chosen to be hardened."

 

[Van]

I see we have "God mercies some and leaves the rest hardened." Does scripture say this? Nope. NASB Romans 9:18, So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. Both having mercy and hardening are verbs in the present tense. Thus "leaves hardened" is a rewrite.

 

[Van]

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:48 I am that bread of life.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Thanks DHK, John 14:6 is particularly on point.