Christ payment was for all mankind

[Van]

Returning to topic, Christ died for all mankind, those saved or to be saved, and those lost and never to be saved. 2 Peter 2:1. Christ tasted death or everyone, whether those to be saved or those never to be saved, Hebrews 2:9. Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation not only for us (believers) but also for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

No amount of "taint so" posts or "change of subject" posts will alter this biblical truth.

 

[agedman]

Returning to topic, Christ died for all mankind, those saved or to be saved, and those lost and never to be saved. 2 Peter 2:1. Christ tasted death or everyone, whether those to be saved or those never to be saved, Hebrews 2:9. Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation not only for us (believers) but also for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

No amount of "taint so" posts or "change of subject" posts will alter this biblical truth.

Van, I think the problem is you take the words "means of salvation" and applying it to the definition of propitiation - which means - appeasement or atoning sacrifice.

If I surmise properly, you are stating that there is salvation in none other than Christ. He alone has salvation and is the way to God. In this you are correct. However, when you state that this is propitiation then that is wrong.

God never needed to be reconciled to man, rather man reconciled to God. To do so required the blood sacrifice and that sacrifice allowed God's wrath to extinguish.

As a RESULT of the propitiation (God's wrath extinguished), Christ then is the mediator between man and God. Therefore, propitiation is not the action (God's wrath) but the catalyst that resulted in Christ then being the mediator between God and man.

Christ is not crucified over and over, rather it was once. As a result of the propitiation (once presented to God), now Christ is the way of salvation is for all who believe. The way (means) is not propitiation.

How does that apply to 2 Peter 2:1 to do with the topic unless you are proclaiming certain on the board are false teachers? Are you?

Hebrews 2:9 - is about Christ substitutionary death. Which recognizes that it was God's wrath and therefore only God could establish what was necessary to atone or appease the wrath.

I am always amazed that the writer of Hebrews considered the Cross the "grace of God." Such amazing grace.

 

[Van]

Hi Agedman, I presented the case for the meaning of the Greek word translated as propitiation. The Greek word as a noun refers to the means of salvation, which is Christ.

You are still rewriting scripture, turning the noun, propitiation, into a verb.

Christ sacrifice was once for all, and no one is saying otherwise. But we receive the reconciliation when God transfers us into Christ, and not before. Thus God is reconciling the world to Himself, one sinner at a time, when He puts those of His choosing into Christ, our propitiatory shelter.

No need, once again to attempt to change the subject to my behavior. You should ask yourself why Calvinism needs to be defended by deflection.

Hebrews 2:9 clearly teaches Christ tasted death for everyone, not just the elect. Thus is totally consistent with 2 Peter 2:1. Calvinism on the other hand, conflicts with these and many other scriptures, which teach Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all.

 

[DHK]

Hi Agedman, I presented the case for the meaning of the Greek word translated as propitiation. The Greek word as a noun refers to the means of salvation, which is Christ.

You are still rewriting scripture, turning the noun, propitiation, into a verb.

Where do you get salvation from?
Here is Thayer's Lexicon:

ἱλασμός
hilasmos
Thayer Definition:
1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation
Part of Speech: noun masculine

 

[Van]

Hi DHK, the means of appeasing comes close to the means of obtaining mercy, which of course is the means of salvation. See post #15 for the full argument.

 

[percho]

Before we even think about studying hilasterion and the related words hilaskomai and hilasmos, we must address the three cornerstone words of salvation - propitiation, the means of salvation, redemption, the act of salvation, and reconciliation, the result of salvation. Our word study below enters into the arena of the means of salvation, which is Jesus Christ.

Hilasterion

Our best understanding is that hilasterion referred to the lid of the ark of the covenant, which was sprinkled with blood, and thus referred to as the mercy seat. Articles on its meaning are filled with classic words like expiation, atonement, and propitiation, all of which convey almost nothing to the modern reader. In a nutshell, under the Old Covenant, the blood of animals was sprinkled on the hilasterion on the day of atonement to provide temporary reconciliation with God and avoidance of the wages of sin. Under the New Covenant, Jesus, covered with His precious blood, has become our "hilasterion" (and our blood sin offering) as the means of everlasting reconciliation with God and avoidance of the wages of sin.

Three related Greek words (Hilasterion and Hilasmos-nouns and Hilaskomai -verb) appear 6 times in the New Testament, Romans 3:25, Hebrews 9:5 ; 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10, Luke 18:13, and Hebrews 2:17. If we look at several translations we find the words translated as (1) propitiatory sacrifice; (2) propitiation; (3) mercy seat; (4) atonement and (5) atoning sacrifice for the nouns; with the verb being translated as (1) have mercy; (2) be merciful; (3) turn your wrath; and (4) make propitiation.

In short the verb refers to the act of having mercy and the noun to the means of having mercy. Therefore hilasterion should be understood as the means of obtaining mercy , i.e the propitiatory shelter.







.

.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:9 Through the obedience unto death, the shed blood, wherein was the soul of the flesh, of the sinless Son of God, born of woman, the wrath of God was satisfied thus the man could be justified.

Man by that death is reconciled to God and shall be saved (vi Fut Pas 1 Pl) in the life of him. Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. --- That is by his resurrected life or this verse; And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17, would have no truth to it.

for since through man, the death, also through man, a rising again of the dead, YLT 1 Cor 15:21, I inserted a comer after each word, "man," and removed the word, "is". I believe it to be clearer that way.

Jesus. the sinless Son of God, born of woman, died for our sins and the sin of Adam, the wrath of God was satisfied, and God the Father raised Jesus the Son, from the dead.

That is the facts whether anyone believes it of not. That and that alone authored, eternal salvation. Heb 5:9 That is how anyone who shall be saved, was saved, whether they believe it or not. Inclusive it that above whether it is believed or not is, "to the for grace, through the faith, is the gift of God, ye are ones having been saved (vp Perf Pas Nom Pl m)," inclusive also is, "according to mercy (The Father before placed Jesus the Son, born of woman, " propitiation," believing he would obediently shed his blood,> [through the faith in the blood of him], which the Son did satisfying the wrath of God), by washing of regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit, he saves us. ( vi Aor Act 3 Sg)

by washing of regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit -- compare with -- This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit

He saves us -- he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Presently I believe God is taking out of the nations a people for his name and pouring on them the first fruit of the Spirit, the Spirit of adoption, begetting them as a kind of first fruit of his creatures, so says the word of God.

 

[agedman]

Hi Agedman, I presented the case for the meaning of the Greek word translated as propitiation. The Greek word as a noun refers to the means of salvation, which is Christ.

You are still rewriting scripture, turning the noun, propitiation, into a verb.

Christ sacrifice was once for all, and no one is saying otherwise. But we receive the reconciliation when God transfers us into Christ, and not before. Thus God is reconciling the world to Himself, one sinner at a time, when He puts those of His choosing into Christ, our propitiatory shelter.

No need, once again to attempt to change the subject to my behavior. You should ask yourself why Calvinism needs to be defended by deflection.

Hebrews 2:9 clearly teaches Christ tasted death for everyone, not just the elect. Thus is totally consistent with 2 Peter 2:1. Calvinism on the other hand, conflicts with these and many other scriptures, which teach Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all.

English nouns and Greek nouns function pretty much in the same way.

Therefore, stating that propitiation is the "means (way) of salvation" is not using propitiation as a noun.

BTW, this is NOT a discussion over Calvinism as much as you would desire it to be. If it were, then there would oblige investigations into such things as what you write in or about just HOW "God transfers us into Christ," and HOW you reject Calvinism yet are bold to state, "He puts those of His choosing into Christ."

Christ does not die at each redemption, but was ONCE offered. Propitiation is not an ongoing process, but ONCE offered to God.

Therefore, there is no continual action or movement in which you are attributing to the word. It is a noun - person, place, thing, idea. Just as in English they come in three styles - masculine, feminine, and neuter. They may occur in any part of the sentence - not always the subject, but also as in English a direct object, object of a position,.... They may be proceeded by an article (Greek only uses one- but has numerous (24) forms) usually translated "the", and so forth.

Your statement is showing movement to or into some position in which the word propitiation does not consider.

 

[Van]

Agedman, if you are not going to address the positions, why post?

1) You can deny the difference between a noun and a verb in Greek till the cows come home, doesn't change the facts.
2) Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.
3) You can deny God transfers us into Christ till the cows come home, doesn't change the facts. All of us who have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into His death.
4) No one said or suggested Christ dies at each redemption, He died once for all. We are baptized into His death at our individual redemption.
5) I am not saying propitiation refers to God giving us to Christ. I am saying Christ is our propitiatory shelter, when God puts us individually into Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation. God's wrath toward our sin burden has been set aside, we have obtained mercy through Christ.

In a nutshell, Christ=propitiation=means of salvation. 1 John 2:2. In Christ=saved, not in Christ=not saved.

 

[Van]

Bought versus Redeemed

But false teachers also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought (agorazo) them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Pet. 2:1.

What does it mean that the Master had bought the false teachers? I believe the Master refers to God the Father who provided reconciliation to all mankind from the bondage of their sinful separated from God state with the blood of the Lamb. Christ paid the price and God accepted the price. But what was bought? Propitiation. Christ became our mercy seat, and through Him, we can obtain the righteousness of God. Since by the sin of the One, Adam, the many, all mankind, were made sinners, imprisoned in our separated from God unholy state, Christ’s sacrifice on the cross bought us, all mankind, out of that bondage. We no longer must remain separated from God, because our sins can be washed away by the blood of Jesus.

Paul put it this way in Colossians 2, “He [God] made you alive together with Him [Christ] [referring to our redemption in Christ], having forgiven us all our transgression [violations of God’s Law].” And how did God accomplish this setting aside the record of our transgressions?

God blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances, which said because we are unholy sinners we must remain separated from God and be punished. God took it out of the way, when He nailed Christ to the cross. Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Christ bought, paid the ransom, for all mankind, thus becoming the means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. However, only when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, do we receive the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Lets call this second transaction redemption. Thus mankind was bought with a price, but only those placed in Christ are redeemed.

The best way to illustrate being bought yet not set apart in Christ is to consider the purchase of an “oil lease.” When the “master” buys an oil lease, he has the right to extract the oil or not, he can leave the oil in the ground forever. So the false teacher of 2 Peter 2:1 was bought but not extracted, he was, so to speak, left in the ground. When any oil is extracted, they are set apart in Christ, transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son.

Christ laying down His life as a ransom for all, purchased the oil lease on mankind, but only those extracted through faith in Christ are redeemed.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Thanks for drawing my attention to this, Van. I did see it when you posted it, but in the cut and thrust of debate I had forgotten it.

Before we even think about studying hilasterion and the related words hilaskomai and hilasmos, we must address the three cornerstone words of salvation - propitiation, the means of salvation, redemption, the act of salvation, and reconciliation, the result of salvation. Our word study below enters into the arena of the means of salvation, which is Jesus Christ.

Hilasterion

Our best understanding is that hilasterion referred to the lid of the ark of the covenant, which was sprinkled with blood, and thus referred to as the mercy seat. Articles on its meaning are filled with classic words like expiation, atonement, and propitiation, all of which convey almost nothing to the modern reader. In a nutshell, under the Old Covenant, the blood of animals was sprinkled on the hilasterion on the day of atonement to provide temporary reconciliation with God and avoidance of the wages of sin. Under the New Covenant, Jesus, covered with His precious blood, has become our "hilasterion" (and our blood sin offering) as the means of everlasting reconciliation with God and avoidance of the wages of sin.

Three related Greek words (Hilasterion and Hilasmos-nouns and Hilaskomai -verb) appear 6 times in the New Testament, Romans 3:25, Hebrews 9:5 ; 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10, Luke 18:13, and Hebrews 2:17. If we look at several translations we find the words translated as (1) propitiatory sacrifice; (2) propitiation; (3) mercy seat; (4) atonement and (5) atoning sacrifice for the nouns; with the verb being translated as (1) have mercy; (2) be merciful; (3) turn your wrath; and (4) make propitiation.

In short the verb refers to the act of having mercy and the noun to the means of having mercy. Therefore hilasterion should be understood as the means of obtaining mercy , i.e the propitiatory shelter.

Some parts of this are quite correct but the thrust of the post is complete nonsense because hilasterion never ever means the 'means of salvation,' at least, not in the sense that you mean it, ie. something that makes salvation possible. On the contrary, it is something that brings salvation. God's righteous anger is taken away by the sacrifice of Christ, and He looks upon those for whom Christ died with favour.

So long as you keep trying to sneak 'means of salvation' into the argument, you are missing the point as I have pointed out in post after post.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks for drawing my attention to this, Van. I did see it when you posted it, but in the cut and thrust of debate I had forgotten it.

Some parts of this are quite correct but the thrust of the post is complete nonsense because hilasterion never ever means the 'means of salvation,' at least, not in the sense that you mean it, ie. something that makes salvation possible. On the contrary, it is something that brings salvation. God's righteous anger is taken away by the sacrifice of Christ, and He looks upon those for whom Christ died with favour.

So long as you keep trying to sneak 'means of salvation' into the argument, you are missing the point as I have pointed out in post after post.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: yup

 

[Van]

Martin, I am not trying to sneak anything in. You characterize my action to denigrate. I provided my study and basis, you have offered nothing but "taint so."

Means of appeasing = means of obtaining mercy = means of salvation.

In Christ= saved, not in Christ=not saved. Christ is our propitiatory shelter. This is not nonsense, it is obvious.

 

[percho]

But false teachers also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought (agorazo) them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Pet. 2:1.

What does it mean that the Master had bought the false teachers? I believe the Master refers to God the Father who provided reconciliation to all mankind from the bondage of their sinful separated from God state with the blood of the Lamb. Christ paid the price and God accepted the price. But what was bought? Propitiation. Christ became our mercy seat, and through Him, we can obtain the righteousness of God. Since by the sin of the One, Adam, the many, all mankind, were made sinners, imprisoned in our separated from God unholy state, Christ’s sacrifice on the cross bought us, all mankind, out of that bondage. We no longer must remain separated from God, because our sins can be washed away by the blood of Jesus.

Paul put it this way in Colossians 2, “He [God] made you alive together with Him [Christ] [referring to our redemption in Christ], having forgiven us all our transgression [violations of God’s Law].” And how did God accomplish this setting aside the record of our transgressions?

God blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances, which said because we are unholy sinners we must remain separated from God and be punished. God took it out of the way, when He nailed Christ to the cross. Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Christ bought, paid the ransom, for all mankind, thus becoming the means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. However, only when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, do we receive the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Lets call this second transaction redemption. Thus mankind was bought with a price, but only those placed in Christ are redeemed.

The best way to illustrate being bought yet not set apart in Christ is to consider the purchase of an “oil lease.” When the “master” buys an oil lease, he has the right to extract the oil or not, he can leave the oil in the ground forever. So the false teacher of 2 Peter 2:1 was bought but not extracted, he was, so to speak, left in the ground. When any oil is extracted, they are set apart in Christ, transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son.

Christ laying down His life as a ransom for all, purchased the oil lease on mankind, but only those extracted through faith in Christ are redeemed.

Do you think the false teacher will ever be extracted? Can God in the future extract him for use if he, God, so choose?

Surly it wasn't up to the false teacher to extract himself.

 

[Van]

The individuals in the verse are bringing swift destruction on themselves.

The issue is not what God could or might do, but what He has told us He will do! Whoever believes into Him will not perish but have eternal life.

Can a person who has rejected Jesus, subsequently come to their senses and put their whole-hearted truth in Christ? I think so. Think about Paul!!

And of course, no one ever extracts themselves, if God does not credit a person's faith as righteousness, they remain in the realm of darkness. Only God transfers them into the kingdom of His Son.

 

[percho]

Thanks for drawing my attention to this, Van. I did see it when you posted it, but in the cut and thrust of debate I had forgotten it.

Some parts of this are quite correct but the thrust of the post is complete nonsense because hilasterion never ever means the 'means of salvation,' at least, not in the sense that you mean it, ie. something that makes salvation possible. On the contrary, it is something that brings salvation. God's righteous anger is taken away by the sacrifice of Christ, and He looks upon those for whom Christ died with favour.

So long as you keep trying to sneak 'means of salvation' into the argument, you are missing the point as I have pointed out in post after post.

As I stated before, I believe God, before the foundation of the world, placed his to be born of woman, Son as, hilasterion, believing, that sinless Son would be obedient unto death even the death of the cross.

Consider: Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Matt 26:38,39
Consider: who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared,; through being Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, YLT Heb 5:

Even being the Son of God, he learned obedience. The sinless Jesus, for the will of the Father, giving his life became the faith of God.

Gal 3:23 Before the faith came, the obedience of Son, the law was the schoolmaster, showing our sin, all were sold under sin, unto death.
V25 After the faith came, no longer under schoolmaster, redeemed, bought back, from death.

Obedience of faith in Romans 1:5 and 16:26 is the obedience of faith, of Jesus. If Jesus had not said, "not my will but thine be done," there would not have been any gospel to the nations nor any apostles to the nations.

 

[DHK]

Christ bought, paid the ransom, for all mankind, thus becoming the means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. However, only when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, do we receive the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Lets call this second transaction redemption. Thus mankind was bought with a price, but only those placed in Christ are redeemed.

In this case Christ paid the ransom price on behalf of mankind to God the Father to satisfy the legal demands of God that payment for sins of the world has been made.
This term does not equal salvation. However it comes close to atonement.
Christ made an atonement for our sins.

One of the definitions I gave you from Thayer's Lexicon was "appeasement."
The wrath of God against sin has been appeased by the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[percho]

The individuals in the verse are bringing swift destruction on themselves.

The issue is not what God could or might do, but what He has told us He will do! Whoever believes into Him will not perish but have eternal life.

Can a person who has rejected Jesus, subsequently come to their senses and put their whole-hearted truth in Christ? I think so. Think about Paul!!

And of course, no one ever extracts themselves, if God does not credit a person's faith as righteousness, they remain in the realm of darkness. Only God transfers them into the kingdom of His Son.

From post 69 However, only when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness

What do those two phrases in bold mean?

I am thinking of Paul. Was Jesus waiting on Paul to come to his senses and believe, so he could be credited with righteousness.

Or did God declare Paul righteous in the blood of Jesus? YLT Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood. And to grant Paul to believe in Jesus and to suffer on his behalf. YLT Phil 1:29 because to you it was granted, on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also on behalf of him to suffer;

What did the Lord tell Ananias?
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, (chosen,to believe in me) to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. (To suffer on my behalf)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin, I am not trying to sneak anything in. You characterize my action to denigrate. I provided my study and basis, you have offered nothing but "taint so."

Means of appeasing = means of obtaining mercy = means of salvation.

In Christ= saved, not in Christ=not saved. Christ is our propitiatory shelter. This is not nonsense, it is obvious.

Van,
I have made post after post refuting your ideas and you either never read them or you ignore them.

Once again, Christ is never described as the means of anything. He is our Saviour; He is never described as a 'propitiatory shelter' which seems to be a term that you have made up. He is our propitiation. Why do you see the need to modify the Biblical terms?

 

[Van]

Martin, there is nothing more that I can say. You have not refuted any of the biblical positions I have presented.

1) Christ died for all mankind, 2 Peter 2:1
2) God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, thus a conditional election, 2 Thessalonians 2:13
3) Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2

 

[Van]

Was Jesus waiting on Paul to come to his senses and believe, so he could be credited with righteousness.

Paul had rejected Christ, but after his Damascus road experience, came to his senses and embraced Jesus as Lord.

Romans 5:9 (NASB) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

No one believes in Jesus unless drawn by the Father, and no one believes in Jesus unless allowed by the Father. But note that the means of being saved from wrath is Christ!! He is our propitiation or means of salvation!!!

What did the Lord tell Ananias?

Acts 9:15-16 (NASB) 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name’s sake.”