Christ payment was for all mankind

[Martin Marprelate]

Let's try the interlinear Greek to English:

Let's not; far too complicated. Just compare the NIV or ESV with the KJV and then with the NKJV and you'll see what I'm getting at.

• [FONT=&quot]any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort [/FONT]
  1. [FONT=&quot]the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc) [/FONT]
  2. [FONT=&quot]of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19 [/FONT]

That seems to work extremely well, but there's another possibility that I want to explore. I'll get back when I have a little time.

 

[revmwc]

Let's not; far too complicated. Just compare the NIV or ESV with the KJV and then with the NKJV and you'll see what I'm getting at.


That seems to work extremely well, but there's another possibility that I want to explore. I'll get back when I have a little time.

So you feel a straight Greek to English is too complicated yet it's the most accurate.

 

[Van]

You still haven't told me what you found when you looked at 1 John 2:2 in various translations. Let me know when you've done that.

Ditto in the first part, been there done that in the second

 

[Van]

Christ payment was for all mankind... REALLY!... Well if that is so Hell only exist for the devil and his angels... If Christ paid the payment for ALL MANKIND THEN ALL MANKIND IS SAVED!... The Father according to the scriptures gave those the Father had chosen according to his love and mercy to his Son Jesus Christ to save. Now Adams transgression and sin was for ALL MANKIND... There is none righteous no not one FOR ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God... Unfortunately this follows under the doctrine of Election and there are many post in the C/A forum past and I'm sure given time SBM will issue a rebuttal... Brother Glen

Here we yet another repeat of another false assertion. If Christ laying down His life as a ransom for all, if Christ tasting death for everyone, if Christ being the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind, does not demonstrate Christ died for all mankind, then obfuscation is in plain view. Instead of purchasing salvation for all mankind, scripture teaches Christ purchased the means of salvation for all mankind. But will this concept be addressed? Nope.

Next we get the false assertion that everyone who will be given to Christ has been given already! John 6:37 demonstrates that everyone given to Christ arrives in Christ because unless they arrived, He could not cast them out. Next John 17:20-21 demonstrates that future believers are not yet in Christ, so future believers have not yet been given to Christ. Is is a lock.

The issue that all mankind was indeed made sinners, and all have fallen short of the glory of God, except Jesus, is not in dispute. So inclusion simply provides obfuscation.

 

[Van]

Jesus paid the price for all sins of all mankind. But like your credit card you receive in the mail it must be activated to actually work. Belief in Jesus is what makes salvation activated on a case by case basis.

John 3:16–18 (AV)
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

Spot on, Sir

 

[Van]

I see Martin still seems to be flailing away at the meaning of "world." Calvinists claim it means Jews here, Gentiles there, believers over there and something else around the bend. But if you do a study of the word translated "world" in John, you will find John uses the word in just two ways, for all of fallen mankind and for the corrupt value system of fallen mankind.

At 1 John 2:2, the book clearly is addressing fellow believers, and so when "us" is contrasted with "the whole world," fallen mankind (those who will believe and those who will never believe) is in view.

 

[percho]

One church I attended several years ago for a short time believed every ones names that ever lived and ever will live are in the book of life but as they die un saved, God takes their names out.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:9

Questions.

The year Jesus the Son of God was born in Bethlehem of Judah, was anyone born in Australia? Was his name in the book of life and or the Lamb's book of life? Let's say those born that year lived from 20 to 60 years. Were they born subject to the deception spoken of in Rev, 12:9?

In your or anyone else's opinion, what would be the status of their name relative to the book of life today?

Did they receive a credit card in the mail?

 

[Van]

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:9

Questions.

The year Jesus the Son of God was born in Bethlehem of Judah, was anyone born in Australia? Was his name in the book of life and or the Lamb's book of life? Let's say those born that year lived from 20 to 60 years. Were they born subject to the deception spoken of in Rev, 12:9?

In your or anyone else's opinion, what would be the status of their name relative to the book of life today?

Did they receive a credit card in the mail?

1) When were the names written in the Lamb's book of life? Before the foundation of the world (so ESV, NIV and NLT) or since the foundation of the world (most other translations)? After!
2) When does the period "since the foundation of the world" end? Now or at the end of the age? At the end of the age. So since man was created until the last person's faith is credited as righteousness, individual names were and will be written in the Lamb's book of life.
3) Another way to translate "the whole world" is "the whole inhabited earth." But since all mankind descended from Adam and Eve, wherever mankind inhabited the land, they had been made sinners and thus suffered the consequence of Adam's volitional sin.
4) Let us assume men were living their lives without ever hearing the gospel and thus never having an opportunity to accept Christ. These people's names would not be written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Yeshua1]

In 1 John 2:2 we see that Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. The verse does not say Christ propitiated the whole world. It is only when an individual is transferred into Christ by God alone, does the person receive the reconciliation provided by His death.

In 2 Corinthians 5:19 we see that God is reconciling the world to Himself. Since we receive the reconciliation when God puts us in Christ, we must conclude God is reconciling the world (all of mankind) one sinner at a time. Thus when Jesus saves an individual, that reconciles the world, to a small degree, one out of billions. And only when someone is transferred into Christ are their sins taken away.

John 3:18 teaches we start out condemned, because as conceived, we do not believe in Christ. Only after we grow in maturity to where we can trust in Christ, hear and accept the gospel, and God credits our faith as righteousness are we set free from our condemnation.

Now the Lamb's book of life has names written in it from or since or after the foundation of the world. So the time for writing names started in the creation week (and not before creation) and extends through time to the last day. Thus names are being written into the book today. Because of translation difficulty at Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 clearly shows when the names are written, i.e. from or since the foundation of the world.

So when were the names placed in the Book of Life then by God?

And Jesus is the One that provides to the father propiation, but why would you see that stating he he affected that towards and was reconcillng all sinners back to the Father?


We would say that the death of jesus was sufficient by its nature to redeem and save all sinners, but that the benefits of that death are applied by god towards only His Elect and chosen in Christ!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You referenced 1 John 2:2, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

That's the NASB translation. Did you take the trouble to check it out against any others? You have admitted that you have no Greek. How do you know that you can rely on it? Do you know what the words in italics mean? The words 'those of' are in italics because they do not appear in any Greek manuscript.
NKJV: 'And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours [literally, 'them of us']only, but also for the whole world.' The NKJV is the only translation that gets it right. Christ is not only the propitiation for our sins, but He is also the propitiation for the whole kosmos.

At the Fall, a curse came upon the earth because of sin (Gen. 3:17; cf 5:29). 'For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.' (Rom. 8:20-21. Read on to v.23). So when Christ returns, not only will our bodies be glorified, but so will the heavens and the earth (2 Peter 3:12-13). 'And there shall be no more curse' (Rev. 22:3). For the blood of Christ that propitiated God in respect of chosen sinners, also propitiated Him in respect of the world.

I offer this interpretation cautiously and, I hope, humbly, because it is not a very common one, but I do believe it is correct. I am open to the correction of the wise. However, whatever the text means, it cannot mean that Christ is the propitiation for all mankind. See below.

So Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. Christ is the means of salvation, thus Propitiation=Christ=means of salvation.

Christ is not the 'means of salvation'- He is the Saviour. The New Birth is the means of salvation. Check out Titus 3:5. And propitiation does not mean 'means of salvation.' Your own second post shows that.

Well one of us certainly has no idea. But to attack an opponents credibility and knowledge rather than his or her position is a logical fallacy. And it does seem dreadful to discuss the meaning of Christ being the propitiation for our sins using logical fallacies.

I showed you your error in my last post. Your position is hopeless. You do not know what propitiation means and repeating the same old nonsense over again does not make it right.

If anyone believes Christ being the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, means the whole world's sins have been propitiated, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

Amen! We agree on something! :thumbsup: But if 'the whole world' means 'all the people in the world' then you're going to have to sell your bridge. Therefore 'the whole world' cannot mean 'all the people in the world.

By the numbers, once again,
1) Only those individuals that God transfers into Christ are propitiated, saved, their sin burden set aside.

:BangHead: It is God who must be propitiated, not sinners!!!

2) Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, anyone set apart in Christ is propitiated, but anyone not set apart in Christ is not propitiated.

:BangHead: This sentence is nonsense.

3) The Bible is true

Amen!

but your conflation of propitiation and propitiated is not true. 1 John 2:2 does not read Christ has propitiated the whole world.

:BangHead: I have never, ever, at any time said He has. He has propitiated God. He has satisfied the Father's outraged justice. '....That He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus' (Rom. 3:26).

4) You are interpreting "the whole world" wrongly as it actually refers to all mankind

.
If it refers to all mankind then God is propitiated towards all mankind, unless you think that the Father might reject the self-offering of the Son, which seems unlikely because God set [Him] forth as a propitiation (Rom. 3:25).

5) Again you refuse to tell us what you think is interesting.

I was trying to encourage you to look for yourself. But there you are; I've told you now.

 

[Yeshua1]

According to human logic that would appear to be true. But God's logic is not man's logic.

There is another way to view the 1 John passage.

First look at this passage

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Even those who have secretly brought in damnable heresies and are destined for destruction have been "bought" (Grk. agarazo) by the Lord.

Then this passage:

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Jesus bought the entire human race including the "wicked". We are all His to do with whatsoever He pleases, to have mercy on whom He will and otherwise.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


HankD

Death of jesus was sufficient to have actually saved all sinners, but only those to whom God applied that saving grace will benefit from and by it!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So you feel a straight Greek to English is too complicated yet it's the most accurate.

It is accurate, but....

And He Propitiation is about the misses of us not about the our more yet only but about whole of the system (world)

It's perfectly fine, and supports my position, but it's unintelligible. See my post to Van for the point I am making.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is accurate, but....

And He Propitiation is about the misses of us not about the our more yet only but about whole of the system (world)

It's perfectly fine, and supports my position, but it's unintelligible. See my post to Van for the point I am making.

What does the actual Greek text use and mean here?

 

[Van]

That's the NASB translation. Did you take the trouble to check it out against any others? You have admitted that you have no Greek. How do you know that you can rely on it? Do you know what the words in italics mean? The words 'those of' are in italics because they do not appear in any Greek manuscript.
NKJV: 'And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours [literally, 'them of us']only, but also for the whole world.' The NKJV is the only translation that gets it right. Christ is not only the propitiation for our sins, but He is also the propitiation for the whole kosmos.

Hi Martin, please try to address the topic. No need to repeatedly question my character or credentials. Such attempts simply show you rely on logical fallacies rather than scripture.

At the Fall, a curse came upon the earth because of sin (Gen. 3:17; cf 5:29). 'For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.' (Rom. 8:20-21. Read on to v.23). So when Christ returns, not only will our bodies be glorified, but so will the heavens and the earth (2 Peter 3:12-13). 'And there shall be no more curse' (Rev. 22:3). For the blood of Christ that propitiated God in respect of chosen sinners, also propitiated Him in respect of the world.

Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, for the whole of fallen mankind. None of the above diversion even addresses that issue.

Christ is not the 'means of salvation'- He is the Saviour. The New Birth is the means of salvation. Check out Titus 3:5. And propitiation does not mean 'means of salvation.' Your own second post shows that.

Let me try it again, Christ is the means of salvation, our propitiation. When we are placed in Christ, in our propitiatory shelter, we are saved.

:BangHead: It is God who must be propitiated, not sinners!!!

Again folks, please read 1 John 2:2 Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. When we are placed spiritually in Christ, and undergo the circumcision of Christ, our sins are propitiated, set aside, forgiven, made null and void, eliminated and so forth and so on!!!

If it refers to all mankind then God is propitiated towards all mankind, unless you think that the Father might reject the self-offering of the Son, which seems unlikely because God set [Him] forth as a propitiation (Rom. 3:25).

Simply repeating the same thing does not make it so! God is not propitiated toward all mankind, nor told all those supposed elected before creation. These views are bogus and unbiblical.

To repeat for the umpteeth time, "only those God places in Christ" are propitiated. Try addressing that view!!

 

[Van]

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV)

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. (NASB)

Folks, as you can see the two translations are identical when you delete the italicized words added to the text for clarity. Obviously no addition was needed.

Bottom line, all this discussion about the translations and the Greek are a diversion, an obfuscation.

Who is the propitiation or means of salvation? Christ. What is propitiated when an individual is placed in Christ? His or her sin burden. Whatever God holds again the individual due to his or her sins is set aside, propitiated.

The real issue which Martin seeks to avoid, is his mistaken view that when Christ died, the past present and future sins of the supposedly chosen before the foundation elect individuals were set aside. However this view would mean future believes when conceived would not be sinners, nor children of wrath. But the Bible says they are. Therefore the Calvinist view is unbiblical.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What does the actual Greek text use and mean here?

1 John 2:2. 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.' (NIV is similar)

The words in square brackets do not appear in any Greek or Latin manuscript. This is the only thing in the world that Rippon and John of Japan will agree about. They're not there. Now go back to my post to Van and have another look.

[This BTW is why I don't think that the NIV or ESV are suitable for serious study by people who don't have the original languages. They don't show where they add words. Therefore the KJV, NASB, and NKJV are better because they put added words in italics]

 

[Revmitchell]

1 John 2:2. 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.' (NIV is similar)

The words in square brackets do not appear in any Greek or Latin manuscript. This is the only thing in the world that Rippon and John of Japan will agree about. They're not there. Now go back to my post to Van and have another look.

And yet it does not change the intent of the original authors to add them. They are only there fro clarification.

 

[Crabtownboy]

And yet it does not change the intent of the original authors to add them. They are only there fro clarification.

I agree Rev. The meaning and intent do not change with the addition of the words in the brackets. They were put in to clarify the meaning.

 

[Yeshua1]

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV)

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. (NASB)

Folks, as you can see the two translations are identical when you delete the italicized words added to the text for clarity. Obviously no addition was needed.

Bottom line, all this discussion about the translations and the Greek are a diversion, an obfuscation.

Who is the propitiation or means of salvation? Christ. What is propitiated when an individual is placed in Christ? His or her sin burden. Whatever God holds again the individual due to his or her sins is set aside, propitiated.

The real issue which Martin seeks to avoid, is his mistaken view that when Christ died, the past present and future sins of the supposedly chosen before the foundation elect individuals were set aside. However this view would mean future believes when conceived would not be sinners, nor children of wrath. But the Bible says they are. Therefore the Calvinist view is unbiblical.

WRONG!

We would hold that due to the death of Jesus indeed paying in full the sin debt of all those whom God intended to get saved by Him, that God thus chose them while yet as sinners to receive eternal life in Christ!

While we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us, the godly for the ungodly, correct?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hi Martin, please try to address the topic. No need to repeatedly question my character or credentials. Such attempts simply show you rely on logical fallacies rather than scripture.

I have addressed the topic. Continually crying foul is wearisome and doesn't help your case.

Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, for the whole of fallen mankind. None of the above diversion even addresses that issue.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it's wrong. A propitiation is not the same as a means of salvation. You are presenting a syllogism that goes
1. Christ is our propitiation.
2. Christ is also our means of salvation (He isn't, but let that pass for the moment).
Conclusion: Propitiation equals means of salvation.

Let's try another syllogism:
1. Rabbits like lettuce.
2. I like lettuce.
Conclusion: I am a rabbit.

Christ is our Saviour. He has propitiated God towards a vast crowd of people that no man can number by means of His sacrificial death. The means of salvation is the New Birth (Titus 3:5 again) which leads to repentance and faith.

When we are placed in Christ, in our propitiatory shelter, we are saved.

Christ is indeed our ark, our city of refuge, our shelter from God's righteous anger (Isaiah 26:20-21). We were given to Him by God before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-5) and He has redeemed every single one given to Him by the Father (John 6:39 etc.). What you appear to be saying (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that after Christ has reconciled every single person on the planet to God, after God is propitiated by the blood of Christ, after that, He still decides to send a whole pile of redeemed sinners to hell! I can't accept that for a moment. Christ 'shall see the labour of His soul and be satisfied' (Isaiah 53:11). How could He be satisfied if millions for whom He suffered and died will not be with Him in heaven? How could He say, "It is finished!" if His work were still subject to the Father's overruling? On the Last Day, will He say, "Here am I and some of the children God has given Me"?

Again folks, please read 1 John 2:2. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

That is not what the text says. It says He is the propitiation for the whole world. You have not proved that 'the whole world' means 'all the people in the whole world.'

When we are placed spiritually in Christ, and undergo the circumcision of Christ, our sins are propitiated, set aside, forgiven, made null and void, eliminated and so forth and so on!!!

For crying out loud! Our sins do not need to be propitiated. God needs to be propitiated, and then the sins of those towards who He is propitiated are set aside, forgiven etc.

Simply repeating the same thing does not make it so!

Amen!

God is not propitiated toward all mankind

,
Amen again! :thumbs:

nor told all those supposed elected before creation.

This makes no sense.

To repeat for the umpteeth time, "only those God places in Christ" are propitiated. Try addressing that view!!

I hope I have done so above. For the umpteenth time, sinners do not need to be propitiated, God does!

Look, if a man has offended his wife and forfeited her wifely smiles and favours, he goes off and buys her a bunch of flowers and a box of chocs. That is what a propitiation is- a sacrifice that turns away wrath. 'And in that day you will say, "O LORD, I will praise you; though you were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, and You comfort Me"' (Isaiah 12:1). What day is that? The day of Jesus Christ (11:10). Christ is the Mediator between sinful men and an outraged God (1 Tim. 2:5). He reconciles them by paying the penalty due for their sins. God's outraged justice is propitiated by the sufferings of Christ. Sinners do not need to be propitiated, sins to not need to be propitiated; God needs to be propitiated.

Now the guy who buys the flowers and chocs doesn't know if his wife is going to be propitiated. She might say, "Don't think you're going to get round me like that!" She might hold out for a slap-up meal in a fancy restaurant. But we know that God is propitiated by the death of Christ, because He 'set [Him] forth as a propitiation..... to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.'

'Payment God will not twice demand;
once at my bleeding Surety's hand,
And then again from me.'