Featured Christ payment was for all mankind

Let's not; far too complicated. Just compare the NIV or ESV with the KJV and then with the NKJV and you'll see what I'm getting at.

That seems to work extremely well, but there's another possibility that I want to explore. I'll get back when I have a little time.

 

Ditto in the first part, been there done that in the second

 

Here we yet another repeat of another false assertion. If Christ laying down His life as a ransom for all, if Christ tasting death for everyone, if Christ being the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind, does not demonstrate Christ died for all mankind, then obfuscation is in plain view. Instead of purchasing salvation for all mankind, scripture teaches Christ purchased the means of salvation for all mankind. But will this concept be addressed? Nope.

Next we get the false assertion that everyone who will be given to Christ has been given already! John 6:37 demonstrates that everyone given to Christ arrives in Christ because unless they arrived, He could not cast them out. Next John 17:20-21 demonstrates that future believers are not yet in Christ, so future believers have not yet been given to Christ. Is is a lock.

The issue that all mankind was indeed made sinners, and all have fallen short of the glory of God, except Jesus, is not in dispute. So inclusion simply provides obfuscation.

 

Spot on, Sir

 

I see Martin still seems to be flailing away at the meaning of "world." Calvinists claim it means Jews here, Gentiles there, believers over there and something else around the bend. But if you do a study of the word translated "world" in John, you will find John uses the word in just two ways, for all of fallen mankind and for the corrupt value system of fallen mankind.

At 1 John 2:2, the book clearly is addressing fellow believers, and so when "us" is contrasted with "the whole world," fallen mankind (those who will believe and those who will never believe) is in view.

 

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:9

Questions.

The year Jesus the Son of God was born in Bethlehem of Judah, was anyone born in Australia? Was his name in the book of life and or the Lamb's book of life? Let's say those born that year lived from 20 to 60 years. Were they born subject to the deception spoken of in Rev, 12:9?

In your or anyone else's opinion, what would be the status of their name relative to the book of life today?

Did they receive a credit card in the mail?

 

1) When were the names written in the Lamb's book of life? Before the foundation of the world (so ESV, NIV and NLT) or since the foundation of the world (most other translations)? After!
2) When does the period "since the foundation of the world" end? Now or at the end of the age? At the end of the age. So since man was created until the last person's faith is credited as righteousness, individual names were and will be written in the Lamb's book of life.
3) Another way to translate "the whole world" is "the whole inhabited earth." But since all mankind descended from Adam and Eve, wherever mankind inhabited the land, they had been made sinners and thus suffered the consequence of Adam's volitional sin.
4) Let us assume men were living their lives without ever hearing the gospel and thus never having an opportunity to accept Christ. These people's names would not be written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

So when were the names placed in the Book of Life then by God?

And Jesus is the One that provides to the father propiation, but why would you see that stating he he affected that towards and was reconcillng all sinners back to the Father?


We would say that the death of jesus was sufficient by its nature to redeem and save all sinners, but that the benefits of that death are applied by god towards only His Elect and chosen in Christ!

 

That's the NASB translation. Did you take the trouble to check it out against any others? You have admitted that you have no Greek. How do you know that you can rely on it? Do you know what the words in italics mean? The words 'those of' are in italics because they do not appear in any Greek manuscript.
NKJV: 'And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours [literally, 'them of us']only, but also for the whole world.' The NKJV is the only translation that gets it right. Christ is not only the propitiation for our sins, but He is also the propitiation for the whole kosmos.

At the Fall, a curse came upon the earth because of sin (Gen. 3:17; cf 5:29). 'For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.' (Rom. 8:20-21. Read on to v.23). So when Christ returns, not only will our bodies be glorified, but so will the heavens and the earth (2 Peter 3:12-13). 'And there shall be no more curse' (Rev. 22:3). For the blood of Christ that propitiated God in respect of chosen sinners, also propitiated Him in respect of the world.

I offer this interpretation cautiously and, I hope, humbly, because it is not a very common one, but I do believe it is correct. I am open to the correction of the wise. However, whatever the text means, it cannot mean that Christ is the propitiation for all mankind. See below.

Christ is not the 'means of salvation'- He is the Saviour. The New Birth is the means of salvation. Check out Titus 3:5. And propitiation does not mean 'means of salvation.' Your own second post shows that.

I showed you your error in my last post. Your position is hopeless. You do not know what propitiation means and repeating the same old nonsense over again does not make it right.

Amen! We agree on something! :thumbsup: But if 'the whole world' means 'all the people in the world' then you're going to have to sell your bridge. Therefore 'the whole world' cannot mean 'all the people in the world.

:BangHead: It is God who must be propitiated, not sinners!!!

:BangHead: This sentence is nonsense.

Amen!

:BangHead: I have never, ever, at any time said He has. He has propitiated God. He has satisfied the Father's outraged justice. '....That He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus' (Rom. 3:26).

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If it refers to all mankind then God is propitiated towards all mankind, unless you think that the Father might reject the self-offering of the Son, which seems unlikely because God set [Him] forth as a propitiation (Rom. 3:25).

I was trying to encourage you to look for yourself. But there you are; I've told you now.

 

Death of jesus was sufficient to have actually saved all sinners, but only those to whom God applied that saving grace will benefit from and by it!

 

It is accurate, but....

And He Propitiation is about the misses of us not about the our more yet only but about whole of the system (world)

It's perfectly fine, and supports my position, but it's unintelligible. See my post to Van for the point I am making.

 

What does the actual Greek text use and mean here?

 

Hi Martin, please try to address the topic. No need to repeatedly question my character or credentials. Such attempts simply show you rely on logical fallacies rather than scripture.

Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, for the whole of fallen mankind. None of the above diversion even addresses that issue.

Let me try it again, Christ is the means of salvation, our propitiation. When we are placed in Christ, in our propitiatory shelter, we are saved.

Again folks, please read 1 John 2:2 Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. When we are placed spiritually in Christ, and undergo the circumcision of Christ, our sins are propitiated, set aside, forgiven, made null and void, eliminated and so forth and so on!!!

Simply repeating the same thing does not make it so! God is not propitiated toward all mankind, nor told all those supposed elected before creation. These views are bogus and unbiblical.

To repeat for the umpteeth time, "only those God places in Christ" are propitiated. Try addressing that view!!

 

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV)

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. (NASB)

Folks, as you can see the two translations are identical when you delete the italicized words added to the text for clarity. Obviously no addition was needed.

Bottom line, all this discussion about the translations and the Greek are a diversion, an obfuscation.

Who is the propitiation or means of salvation? Christ. What is propitiated when an individual is placed in Christ? His or her sin burden. Whatever God holds again the individual due to his or her sins is set aside, propitiated.

The real issue which Martin seeks to avoid, is his mistaken view that when Christ died, the past present and future sins of the supposedly chosen before the foundation elect individuals were set aside. However this view would mean future believes when conceived would not be sinners, nor children of wrath. But the Bible says they are. Therefore the Calvinist view is unbiblical.

 

1 John 2:2. 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.' (NIV is similar)

The words in square brackets do not appear in any Greek or Latin manuscript. This is the only thing in the world that Rippon and John of Japan will agree about. They're not there. Now go back to my post to Van and have another look.

[This BTW is why I don't think that the NIV or ESV are suitable for serious study by people who don't have the original languages. They don't show where they add words. Therefore the KJV, NASB, and NKJV are better because they put added words in italics]

 

And yet it does not change the intent of the original authors to add them. They are only there fro clarification.

 

I agree Rev. The meaning and intent do not change with the addition of the words in the brackets. They were put in to clarify the meaning.

 

WRONG!

We would hold that due to the death of Jesus indeed paying in full the sin debt of all those whom God intended to get saved by Him, that God thus chose them while yet as sinners to receive eternal life in Christ!

While we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us, the godly for the ungodly, correct?

 

I have addressed the topic. Continually crying foul is wearisome and doesn't help your case.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it's wrong. A propitiation is not the same as a means of salvation. You are presenting a syllogism that goes
1. Christ is our propitiation.
2. Christ is also our means of salvation (He isn't, but let that pass for the moment).
Conclusion: Propitiation equals means of salvation.

Let's try another syllogism:
1. Rabbits like lettuce.
2. I like lettuce.
Conclusion: I am a rabbit.

Christ is our Saviour. He has propitiated God towards a vast crowd of people that no man can number by means of His sacrificial death. The means of salvation is the New Birth (Titus 3:5 again) which leads to repentance and faith.

Christ is indeed our ark, our city of refuge, our shelter from God's righteous anger (Isaiah 26:20-21). We were given to Him by God before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-5) and He has redeemed every single one given to Him by the Father (John 6:39 etc.). What you appear to be saying (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that after Christ has reconciled every single person on the planet to God, after God is propitiated by the blood of Christ, after that, He still decides to send a whole pile of redeemed sinners to hell! I can't accept that for a moment. Christ 'shall see the labour of His soul and be satisfied' (Isaiah 53:11). How could He be satisfied if millions for whom He suffered and died will not be with Him in heaven? How could He say, "It is finished!" if His work were still subject to the Father's overruling? On the Last Day, will He say, "Here am I and some of the children God has given Me"?

That is not what the text says. It says He is the propitiation for the whole world. You have not proved that 'the whole world' means 'all the people in the whole world.'

For crying out loud! Our sins do not need to be propitiated. God needs to be propitiated, and then the sins of those towards who He is propitiated are set aside, forgiven etc.

Amen!

,
Amen again! :thumbs:

This makes no sense.

I hope I have done so above. For the umpteenth time, sinners do not need to be propitiated, God does!

Look, if a man has offended his wife and forfeited her wifely smiles and favours, he goes off and buys her a bunch of flowers and a box of chocs. That is what a propitiation is- a sacrifice that turns away wrath. 'And in that day you will say, "O LORD, I will praise you; though you were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, and You comfort Me"' (Isaiah 12:1). What day is that? The day of Jesus Christ (11:10). Christ is the Mediator between sinful men and an outraged God (1 Tim. 2:5). He reconciles them by paying the penalty due for their sins. God's outraged justice is propitiated by the sufferings of Christ. Sinners do not need to be propitiated, sins to not need to be propitiated; God needs to be propitiated.

Now the guy who buys the flowers and chocs doesn't know if his wife is going to be propitiated. She might say, "Don't think you're going to get round me like that!" She might hold out for a slap-up meal in a fancy restaurant. But we know that God is propitiated by the death of Christ, because He 'set [Him] forth as a propitiation..... to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.'

'Payment God will not twice demand;
once at my bleeding Surety's hand,
And then again from me.'