Christ set forth as a Propitiation

[JesusFan]

Now? Several Reformed people (mostly Presbyterian) woukd agree with me, but this is a small group trying to being their faith closer to Scripture (the "reform the Reformed" guys). I doubt any Reformed Baptists would agree.

There are many Baptist groups that agree with me. If you look at early Baptists all of them agreed with me. Today, I think most Western Baptists would disagree with me.

BUT, to quote Spurgeon, "men go to Hell in the lump, they go to Heaven individually".

This does not mean all who hold Calvin's theories are carried away by their philosophy. I believe most are not. I was one of those that were not, but I believe I was on that path.

That said, there are many who have been carried away from the faith by these philosophies. They cannot highlight their faith in the Bible (in God's actual words, verbatim) either. And "on that day" they will cry out "Lord, Lord", only to hear "I never knew you". That is the danger of abandoning "what is written" ("every word that comes from God") in favor of what men say the Bible teaches (ones "own understanding", philosophy).

There is also a big danger of trampling underfoot the precious blood of Jesus for our salvation, for if one denies that he bore the very burden of their sins, what Jesus are they really trusting in to save from their sins?

@JesusFan

How many times have you asked me if I thought it woukd be unfair to have God the Father vent His holy Wrath upon the lord Jesus, that it would be "cosmic child abuse?"

Ten? Twenty?

How many times have I told you that I it would not be unfair and that those who claim it is "cosmic child abuse" do not understand Calvinism?

Ten? Twenty?


Let this be the last time, please.

No, I do not believe it would be unfair or amount to cosmic child abuse.


It is, however, not in God's words (the "words that come from God", "what is written") and it is a teaching very different from what the Bible teaches if the Bible teaches "what is written" (God's words).

It also calls into question the righteousness of God (God would have committed an "abomination" by clearing the guilty and punishing the righteous).

except that Jesus as the sin bearer became as t were sin for us, so while he ALWAYS remained the Holy and spotless Lamb of God, while upon that Cross he became for our sake the mercy seat, the very one who took from the Father what was due unto us.

No, the lost are not currently in Hell. No, before we were saved we were not in Hell.

The wicked will be raised to condemnation while those of us who are in Christ will be raised to life. The wicked store up wrath for themselves for the Day of Wrath. God will separate peoole.

One grouo, those in Christ, ate not guilty of the sins of the "old man", they have been refined as gold and silver is refined, they have been made new creations in Christ, they have been conformed to the image of Christ. These will inherit life.

The other group, the wicked, will experience the wrath they have stored up for themselves. They will be cast into the Lake of Fire which has been prepared for Satan and his demons. This is the Second death.


What allows God to justify us? Christ Himself. He is the Propitiation for our sins. God set Him forth as a propitiation in His blood. He became a life giving spirit. In Him we have life. In Him we are made new creations. In Him we are chosen.

Again, on what BASIS can Holy God declare us Justified then, for still he truth is the soul that sins must die, and that would mean either we will die for our sins, or else someone one takes in our place upon themselves

Now? Several Reformed people (mostly Presbyterian) woukd agree with me, but this is a small group trying to being their faith closer to Scripture (the "reform the Reformed" guys). I doubt any Reformed Baptists would agree.

There are many Baptist groups that agree with me. If you look at early Baptists all of them agreed with me. Today, I think most Western Baptists would disagree with me.

BUT, to quote Spurgeon, "men go to Hell in the lump, they go to Heaven individually".

This does not mean all who hold Calvin's theories are carried away by their philosophy. I believe most are not. I was one of those that were not, but I believe I was on that path.

That said, there are many who have been carried away from the faith by these philosophies. They cannot highlight their faith in the Bible (in God's actual words, verbatim) either. And "on that day" they will cry out "Lord, Lord", only to hear "I never knew you". That is the danger of abandoning "what is written" ("every word that comes from God") in favor of what men say the Bible teaches (ones "own understanding", philosophy).

Think that if you were to survey pastors teachers theologians for past centuries, Psa would be the majority and dominant view among Reformed, Baptist, and Evangelical arminians

 

[JonC]

There is also a big danger of trampling underfoot the precious blood of Jesus for our salvation, for if one denies that he bore the very burden of their sins, what Jesus are they really trusting in to save from their sins?

If you stick with the words that actually come from God then you will not have to worry about trampling underfoot the blood of Christ

The passage about trampling the blood of Christ refers to leaving the faith. This IS the danger one faces when they exchange God's words for what men tells them is really taught by the Bible. They are carried away from the faith "once delivered" by philosophy.

And yes, these men are trampling underfoot the blood of Christ.

 

[JonC]

except that Jesus as the sin bearer became as t were sin for us, so while he ALWAYS remained the Holy and spotless Lamb of God, while upon that Cross he became for our sake the mercy seat, the very one who took from the Father what was due unto us.

I never said that Jesus did not bear our sins. Again, I have repeatedly said that He bore our sin, that it is by His stripes we are healed.

The parts of your philosophy I have rejected are those things that are not in the Bible.

 

[JonC]

Again, on what BASIS can Holy God declare us Justified then, for still he truth is the soul that sins must die, and that would mean either we will die for our sins, or else someone one takes in our place upon themselves

AGAIN

The basis for our salvation, for our justification, for our sanctification, for our ultimate glorification IS CHRIAT HIMSELF.

God set Him forth as a propitiation in His blood.
He is the Propitiation for our sins.
We are made new creations in Christ
In Him there is no condemnation
We will be conformed into His image


Dude....just read your Bible and believe the eords of God written in those pages.

 

[JonC]

Think that if you were to survey pastors teachers theologians for past centuries, Psa would be the majority and dominant view among Reformed, Baptist, and Evangelical arminians

Who cares?

I am not looking to follow the larger crowd. I am not looking to be on the broad path.

I prefer the narrow path. There is life there.

So I will continue to learnt on my own understanding but on every word that comes forth from God.
I will continue to test my faith against "what is written" in God's Word.
I will continue to refine my understanding in accordance to God's words.

Follow whoever you choose. I told you, you entered this discussion and you jave been shown two paths. You can no longer plead ignorance.

Choose to believe God's words.
Choose to believe what men say is really taught by the Bible.
The choice is between life and death
But the choice is yours alone.
And that is between you and God.

 

[JonC]

@JesusFan

Would it surprised you that most Baptists are SBC baptists?

Would it surprise you that William B. Johnson strongly opposed the theory?

William B. Johnson founded the South Carolina Baptist Convention and was its president for 27 years.
He was a founder (the principle designer) of the Southern Baptist Convention and served as its first president.

The first SBC statement of faith was in 1925, a time when the theory was gaining ground in US Baptist churches, but it was purposely written to avoid a stand either way (so as to include the theorists along with traditional Baotists.

I do not say this to claim a majority status. I pray to God that I am never in the majority (I prefer the narrow road).

I say this because you ignorantly treat Baptists as a whole unified group.

This is ironic because most Baptists would reject your theology (Calvinism).


What matters is God's words. The World may go to Hell in a hand basket. Many claiming to be saved will say "Lord, Lord" only to hear "I never knew you".

The "faith once delivered" is the words of God as recorded in God's Word.

I hope with all of my heart that you will be with me in hearing "well done, my faithful servant". But I know many I have encountered will hear "I never knew you", which is terrible. I urge you to seek out God and trust not in the understandings of men but in every word that comes from God.

My zeal to know more of God and salvation allowed me to drift into the philosophy you now praise. Thankfully God pointed out how far I had drifted from His actual words before it was too late, before this philosophy carried me away from the faith.

This means I wasted many years studying theology that was in truth just human philosophy. But it also means that I can see the dangers of these theories. For most, I believe, these are benign as they will never commit to the philosophy. They cannot truly understand a lot of Scripture, but they are not studying to understand thise things these theories replace. Many are studying to understand how to live. Where those who are fully committed to man's understanding of what the Bible "really" teaches will fall, God will make these stand.

But over the years it seems to me you are fully committing yourself to these understandings rather than the words that come from God.

Please buy a highlighter and start reading God's words rather than a diet of religious philosophy. Highlight what God says about essential doctrines and believe thise words.

Scrioture really does make sence without those theories.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

As the originator of the thread, I request that it is now closed.
I have made all the points I wanted to make - apart from one, for which I will open another thread - and it doesn't seem particularly edifying, or encouraging to new members, for JonC and myself to be swapping insults indefinitely

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 1830 GMT - 230 pm EDT