Christian Feminism...

[tinytim]

No one needs to be a deacon to do all this, and if only deaconesses do these jobs it limits other women even more.

I agree to a point...
But it does make sure that things are done in decency and in order in the church...
Come communion Sunday, everyone knows the table will be prepared, because someone specific has the responsibility to do so...
Same as when a woman is being Baptized, a church with deaconesses knows that the woman will be helped into and out of the baptistry, because someone specifically has that responsibility...

And would you go to any woman in the congregation to talk about personal things... or would you rather go to someone who has had training so that she can advise you the right way?

In small churches, these problems may not exist, but in churches say 400 or more in attendance, these problems must be addressed...

I am not arguing one way or another...
A church that limits their women has every right to, because each church is autonomous...

But, I am arguing for understanding on this issue...
You don't have to agree with others, but please try to understand there are other valid viewpoints as well.

Just because one Christian doesn't see the scripture the same as another Christian doesn't make them a bad Christian.
We should remember this.

 

[Revmitchell]

There is a distinct difference between differing views and diminishing the Word of God. And some views are a result of this.

 

[Sopranette]

So seeing to the needs of the youngest of the flock and helping to lay a foundation that will prayerfully last a lifetime is "less" than what women can do? Wow. Yes, women can do more than be a nursery worker, Sunday School teacher or kitchen worker but those jobs might be even more important than the senior pastor in a church and by your putting it down, you are insulting a LOT of people who are working for the Lord and not "glory" or "fame".

In our church, we follow the Scriptures and women are not to be in authority over men or to preach. However, here are the roles of the women in our church off the top of my head:

counseling to women and children (huge ministry)
premarital counseling (with their husbands)
office manager
secretaries
missions ministry intern
workplace ministry intern
service coordinator (organizes the service and makes sure that everything is set for Sunday and other services)
drama director
worship leader (one of the worship teams)
worship team members
special events coordinator
nursery director
nursery workers
preschool director
preschool teachers
media specialist
website management
bookkeeping/accounting assistants
small group leader coordinator
"Welcome Center" staffers (the information desk in the lobby)
media ministry workers and coordinators
leader in our ministry to the disabled
deaf ministry coordinator
ladies' ministry study leader
Spanish teacher
sign language teacher
interpreter for the deaf


Some of the women in our church cover more than one job - mine are media specialist and website management. I just got off the phone with the service coordinator and planned out a funeral, coordinated timing for computer work, got some more information for the website, got the contacts for the two families who will be having funerals (one this week and the other one is a family where the mom/wife just passed away) so that I can contact them and coordinate getting pictures, songs, etc. for the service.

I don't see any women in our church who is not working to their giftings nor being held back from doing what God designed them to do. I also don't see any women in our church working against Scripture.

Good post, annsi, but where's the little soprano choir member? :laugh:

love,

Sopranette

 

[annsni]

But the office of Deaconess is a real office in our churches... (ABC/USA denom.)
For us it is not an ordained office, but it is an office.
It is an office where the women meet women's needs that a man cannot meet.
The deaconesses in the church I formerly was youth pastor in helped the women in situations where it would be inappropriate for a man to help them.
They also prepared the communion table, and helped the ladies get dressed for baptism.


Now you may say that we have no scriptural basis for deaconess, and for that reason the office shouldn't exist.
Just be prepared to justify other offices in church where there are no scriptural support... Like:
Trustees, Secretary, Church Clerk, Missions Coordinator, Audio/Visual personel, Sunday School Superintendent, etc.

Paul said we must do things in decency and in order...
The church has changed through the centuries to meet people's needs within the culture those people live.
A deaconness is a valuable asset to the church. Just as Trustees are...
Imagine a woman needing to talk to a male deacon about a hysterectomy she needs to have.... I wouldn't want my wife talking to our deacon... even though he is almost 70 yrs old....

I would probably lose my deacon! He gets embarrased over the slightest of things, and he would go home to be with God over the embarrassment! :laugh:

She would go to his wife... which in a way is filling the office of deaconess even though it is not an official office in my current church.

There are other situations in which you can think of I am sure in which a woman would rather talk to another woman to help her...
The office of Deaconess provides this service to women of the church.

I don't think that a woman needs to have a title of "deacon" for this since it carries a different connotation than it used to in the NT, from what I can see. But I agree - it's important for women to be in place for ministry to other women and I thank God for those women in my church who serve in this manner and pray that I'm fulfilling the same role.

 

[annsni]

When a woman is elected as deaconness, she is provided with the proper training in order to properly counsel other women.
These women are set apart, and the women of the congregation knows that if they have a need, they can come to these women who are prepared to meet their needs.

In no way do these deaconnesses have any authority... they simply are there to serve... The same way deacons should...

Which brings us to another problem that is worse than a woman deacon.

A male deacon that thinks that office gives him any authority in the church.
A male deacon has no authority whatsoever, they are only there to serve.

But today's American Deacons have usurped authority the Bible has never gave them.

A Deacon is only a servant and helper of the Pastor.

A church that let's their deacons make the decisions of the church is as unscriptural as a church that ordains women to be deacons.

Right. These women are being basically labeled "Titus 2 Elder Women". They have proven themselves to be faithful to the Lord and capable of solid counsel. It is not a role for just anyone but those who fulfill the "requirements" of being an elder woman.

 

[donnA]

I agree to a point...
But it does make sure that things are done in decency and in order in the church...
Come communion Sunday, everyone knows the table will be prepared, because someone specific has the responsibility to do so...
Same as when a woman is being Baptized, a church with deaconesses knows that the woman will be helped into and out of the baptistry, because someone specifically has that responsibility...

And would you go to any woman in the congregation to talk about personal things... or would you rather go to someone who has had training so that she can advise you the right way?

In small churches, these problems may not exist, but in churches say 400 or more in attendance, these problems must be addressed...

I am not arguing one way or another...
A church that limits their women has every right to, because each church is autonomous...

But, I am arguing for understanding on this issue...
You don't have to agree with others, but please try to understand there are other valid viewpoints as well.

Just because one Christian doesn't see the scripture the same as another Christian doesn't make them a bad Christian.
We should remember this.

Apparently if you don't have deaconesses your church is in order.
In our previous church(we are still unfamiliar with the new church) there was a set person who was in charge of communion, every one knew it would be done right as she has been doing it for 20 or so years, and she isn't a deacon.
There is also someone whose job it is to help women out being baptized, no one has to go search for someone, we all know the job will be done. And she isn't a deacon.
If I were in need of counsel I would know what women I could go to, we all know who can want to confide in. And we aren't limited to a deaconess.
We are not a small church, we are the largest in our whole area, with over 500.
Women not being deacons is not limiting them, it is freeing all women up to be able to minister. In your church all women not deacons are limited because some jobs are obviously for deaconesses only, meaning if you want to be biblical, then that church limits what you can do to serve God, rejects the woman who does not wish to fulfil a man's role.
Each church is autonomous, but it does not mean they can violate scripture if they so wish.
The bible says what it says, a bad christian denies it and does what they want. Like women deacons and pastors.

 

[donnA]

I don't think that a woman needs to have a title of "deacon" for this since it carries a different connotation than it used to in the NT, from what I can see. But I agree - it's important for women to be in place for ministry to other women and I thank God for those women in my church who serve in this manner and pray that I'm fulfilling the same role.

And I'd bet none of you are even deacons either. Who would ahve thought a church can function without violating scritpure.

 

[superwoman8977]

Superwoman, I'm going to politely ask you....do you not see a pattern to your responses? Do you not agree you cannot serve two masters, in this case, the Lord AND your own convictions? I'm asking , because this seems to me to be the one thing you cannot get past.

love,

Sopranette

Do I serve 2 masters? No. To me the most important thing in my life is my relationship with my Lord. And my relationship with Him is more important than what a woman can/cannot do etc. Last night I was in Isaiah 66--verses 1 and 2 caught me and really spoke to me and the thought came ---How BIG is my God? Sitting there saying that a woman cannot do this and that really in my opinion limits God's working. Almost like saying Oh God we love you but you cannot do this, this, and this...Is that right, no. I love spending time in the word and time in prayer and watching God close some of the doors in my life and open new ones. I love the opportunities to serve He has presented me with, I love the people he has put in my life to help me get through the divorce and I love the man he has put in my life to close one chapter in my life and open up a new chapter. I have had so many people tell me that my divorce is wrong, well in all honesty I was happy living with my cheating husband I am guessing he wants more in his life whatever that may be. But I am glad I am a woman who can handle whatever is thrown at her as long as I have Christ with me. I am not a traditional person by any means and I refuse to be lumped into this well "traditional" role. Thats proabably why I attend a come as you are Baptist Church and read from the amplified version of the bible. I was told when I was growing up that girls wear dresses and dont climb trees and raise steers and I showed everyone that oh yeah a girl can.

 

[annsni]

Do I serve 2 masters? No. To me the most important thing in my life is my relationship with my Lord. And my relationship with Him is more important than what a woman can/cannot do etc. Last night I was in Isaiah 66--verses 1 and 2 caught me and really spoke to me and the thought came ---How BIG is my God? Sitting there saying that a woman cannot do this and that really in my opinion limits God's working. Almost like saying Oh God we love you but you cannot do this, this, and this...Is that right, no.

So working inside God's boundaries (that HE set up) is limiting God? Wow.

I love spending time in the word and time in prayer and watching God close some of the doors in my life and open new ones.

Do not ascribe to God what man or Satan have done. God did not orchestrate your divorce. Sin did.

I love the opportunities to serve He has presented me with, I love the people he has put in my life to help me get through the divorce and I love the man he has put in my life to close one chapter in my life and open up a new chapter.

God did not give you a man to commit adultery with (even if you did not sleep with him, you still committed adultery by being with a man who was not your husband)

I have had so many people tell me that my divorce is wrong, well in all honesty I was happy living with my cheating husband I am guessing he wants more in his life whatever that may be.

I will not tell you your divorce is wrong because your husband cheated on you. However, it doesn't make the divorce blessed.

But I am glad I am a woman who can handle whatever is thrown at her as long as I have Christ with me.

That is great. A strong woman is not a bad thing. Depending on your own wisdom is.

I am not a traditional person by any means and I refuse to be lumped into this well "traditional" role.

"Traditional" or God ordained? It's like a man saying "I'm not going to be a 'family' man - because I refuse to be lumped into a traditional role. Let my wife support us." Sorry - unbiblical. If we want to "do" for the Lord, we must follow HIS Word and not our own thinking. There are many things that we can be inside of God's will and there are lots of things we can be outside of that. We need to be careful that the world's thinking does not get the upper hand over God's Word.

Thats proabably why I attend a come as you are Baptist Church and read from the amplified version of the bible. I was told when I was growing up that girls wear dresses and dont climb trees and raise steers and I showed everyone that oh yeah a girl can.

Sure a girl can. I can train a 1500 lb. horse, drive a horse trailer, remove stitches, climb mountains, sail a 42 foot boat, manage a website, run a group for new moms, do breastfeeding counseling, minister to a family who has lost a loved one (which is what I'm working on today), bike 500 miles in 8 days, work on the Red Cross disaster team and raise 4 children to love the Lord. But all of these things are inside God's will and not going against what He has said in His Word.

I really think you are very confused about what a woman's role in the kingdom is. I certainly am not held back at all, pushed down or demeaned. I think the only way to feel that is when there is rebellion in the heart, IMO.

 

[go2church]

Each church is autonomous, but it does not mean they can violate scripture if they so wish.
The bible says what it says, a bad christian denies it and does what they want. Like women deacons and pastors.

Therein lies the problem with much of this conversation, because that is exactly what it means! I may not like it, but it isn't independent or autonomous if it isn't the independence or autonomy to believe the "wrong" things.

 

[Sopranette]

Do I serve 2 masters? No. To me the most important thing in my life is my relationship with my Lord. And my relationship with Him is more important than what a woman can/cannot do etc. Last night I was in Isaiah 66--verses 1 and 2 caught me and really spoke to me and the thought came ---How BIG is my God? Sitting there saying that a woman cannot do this and that really in my opinion limits God's working. Almost like saying Oh God we love you but you cannot do this, this, and this...Is that right, no. I love spending time in the word and time in prayer and watching God close some of the doors in my life and open new ones. I love the opportunities to serve He has presented me with, I love the people he has put in my life to help me get through the divorce and I love the man he has put in my life to close one chapter in my life and open up a new chapter. I have had so many people tell me that my divorce is wrong, well in all honesty I was happy living with my cheating husband I am guessing he wants more in his life whatever that may be. But I am glad I am a woman who can handle whatever is thrown at her as long as I have Christ with me. I am not a traditional person by any means and I refuse to be lumped into this well "traditional" role. Thats proabably why I attend a come as you are Baptist Church and read from the amplified version of the bible. I was told when I was growing up that girls wear dresses and dont climb trees and raise steers and I showed everyone that oh yeah a girl can.

Thank you for responding, superwoman. There's nothing wrong with being a strong woman, definitely! But I can also see you have been deeply hurt by what has happened in your marriage. Please do not let this hurt blind you to God's perfect instruction.

love,

Sopranette

 

[tinytim]

Sure a girl can. I can train a 1500 lb. horse, drive a horse trailer, remove stitches, climb mountains, sail a 42 foot boat, manage a website, run a group for new moms, do breastfeeding counseling, minister to a family who has lost a loved one (which is what I'm working on today), bike 500 miles in 8 days, work on the Red Cross disaster team and raise 4 children to love the Lord.

When I read that, I imagined you singing this...


I can bring home the bacon
fry it up in a pan
and never, never, never
let you forget you're a man
cause I'm a woman

YOU GO GIRL!!!

 

[annsni]

When I read that, I imagined you singing this...


I can bring home the bacon
fry it up in a pan
and never, never, never
let you forget you're a man
cause I'm a woman

YOU GO GIRL!!!

Of course I don't do all that every day.

Oh - and I'll bring home a bacon slice or two - the rest of the slab is thanks to DH. LOL

 

[gb93433]

The deacon and deaconess I speak of are the ordained office. As far as "Diakonos" we all should be.

Have you ever attended an ordination where the person leading the ordination ever asked the candidate to talk about personal discipleship and to tell the congregation about those he has discipled. I have never heard anyone talk about personal discipleship in an ordination service. However I have asked the question of a man wanting to be an elder in a church I attended.

 

[gb93433]

Phoebe was not a deacon and there is no such thing as a Deaconess.

Don't be so sure. Try reading the letter dated 112 A.D. where Governor Pliny wrote a letter to the emperor Trajan. In it he mentions a couple of deaconesses (Book X, XCVI, 8, 289). It is available in the Loeb Classical Library series.

 

[donnA]

Don't be so sure. Try reading the letter dated 112 A.D. where Governor Pliny wrote a letter to the emperor Trajan. In it he mentions a couple of deaconesses (Book X, XCVI, 8, 289). It is available in the Loeb Classical Library series.

This si not the bible, why would we consider it having any authority at all. All it could possibly prove is that people have always wanted to violate scripture.

 

[gb93433]

And I'd bet none of you are even deacons either. Who would ahve thought a church can function without violating scritpure.

When you find a perfect church do not join it because you will ruin it.

 

[gb93433]

This si not the bible, why would we consider it having any authority at all. All it could possibly prove is that people have always wanted to violate scripture.

So in your gifted wisdom your interpretation is void of historical context?

God gave you a brain too. That is not in the Bible. Do you check your brains at the door when you enter the church building because brains are not in the Bible?

According to your hermeneutic that if you drive a car and use a flush toilet you are in violation of scripture. If it is not in the Bible then you must not drive a car or use a flush toilet.

Obviously you did not read the letter. If you had then you would have not answered so hastily.

 

[annsni]

Have you ever attended an ordination where the person leading the ordination ever asked the candidate to talk about personal discipleship and to tell the congregation about those he has discipled. I have never heard anyone talk about personal discipleship in an ordination service. However I have asked the question of a man wanting to be an elder in a church I attended.

That is not for the ordination service. That would be for the ordination counsel before the service. An ordination candidate is fully questioned before the actual ceremony. It's kind of like when we do premarital counseling - it's required for all marriages at our church. You're not going to get all the background info at the ceremony but it was most certainly covered at the meetings beforehand.

 

[donnA]

So in your gifted wisdom your interpretation is void of historical context?

God gave you a brain too. That is not in the Bible. Do you check your brains at the door when you enter the church building because brains are not in the Bible?

According to your hermeneutic that if you drive a car and use a flush toilet you are in violation of scripture. If it is not in the Bible then you must not drive a car or use a flush toilet.

Obviously you did not read the letter. If you had then you would have not answered so hastily.

THE LETTER is not from scripture and holds no authority.
Your insults are very Christ like aren't they.