Christian Universalism?

God did not give man a sinful nature. Man's sinful nature is a consequence of the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden.

 

I agree with you but Reformed said it was this way;

 

I really do not recall engaging you in a debate? Maybe if you didn't start you wouldn't have to quit. peace

 

I engaged someone else explaining a phrase you made which was false. Tell me something, you say you are done with me but yet you are posting to me again, [personal attack deleted]
You say God does not predestinate anyone to hell and in the same breath say but they can't go no where else. lol, Calvinist are really funny.

 

1. Ok, lets analize what is being said here:Calvinist do not believe that God predestines anyone to hell. That is easy Calvinist don't believe God predestines anyone to Hell.

2. We beleive that the elect are predestined to salvation. That is easy too, Calvinist believe the "elect are predestined to Salvation.

3. We believe that the non-elect are offered salvation like anyone else. Another easy one the non-elect are offered Salvation from God same as the elect.

4. it is just that God does not change their nature to be inclined toward Jesus in Faith. Oops something wrong here, this don't jive with (3). It says they are offered Salvation like the elect (but) God offered it but refuses to change their nature like He did the "elect" therefore they can't receive it. So God refused to do something for the non-elect He chose to do for the elect, so does anyone in their right mind think the non-elect are offered Salvation same as the Elect when God is the one who offer and God is the one who changes their heart so they can receive it.

5. They go to hell because they choose to not believe. Oops, something wrong here too, this don't jive with (3). God refused to change their heart as He did the elect, so they have to go to Hell. God could of chose to save them but instead chose to let them go to hell.

6. This is where a lot of Arminians falsely say that we do not think that the elect have to believe. Oops, something wrong here too, this don't jive with (2) where God predestinated the elect to be saved. It seems to me they do not have a choice to beleive but God did it for them.

What a crock!!!

 

Both of you need to stick to the subject and stop the personal attacks, or we can simply close the thread and pass out free vacations. I'd rather not do this, so if we can stick to the subject and quit making personal accusations then you may continue.

This will be the first and last warning.

Thank you, in advance, for coorporating with the BB rules.

 

attacks

Thank you Phillip;
The personal attacks are very wrong and brings out the worst in all of us, myself included. peace,raying:

 

This is indeed the view of the Primitive Baptists Universalists.
They do resent being called "no-hellers" because they indeed believe that hell exists but that it is a remedial place, temporary and not a place of eternal torment.

In addition, at least some, maybe many, within the sphere of what we would call "orthodox" Christianity believe that hell is not a place of excruciating torment but that it is forever and that the suffering there is the knowledge of the fact of eternal separation from God and that the language of the Bible concerning "fire and brimstone" is figurative of this knowledge and what might have been. But I don't think that this particular belief could be included under the umbrella of "Universalism".


HankD

 

Brother Bob - Thanks for helping me understand what unconditional election really is.

drfuss

 

Welcome

You are very welcome drfuss.

 

KenH, I notice that on your Profile page you are So. Baptist. This view is not typically S. Baptist. Are you alone in your church in this view, or does your pastor and/or many others advocate this?

 

No, to my knowledge, I am a lone wolf in this view. Unless someone brings us the subject, such as on this board, I don't discuss it. I am more interested in seeing people come to Christ Jesus in repentance and faith than in arguing over theological differences. I don't mind giving people information that they can study on their own, such as the links I provided in this thread.

None of us has a perfect understanding of theology and I think that we all will be greatly surprised by a lot of things when we arrive in Heaven.

 

KenH, although I disagree with you, I do know where you are coming from on the Universalism, and I understand why you don't bring it up. I've seen people get upset at things that are simply laid out in Scripture, much less controversial things that take thought.

Edited to add: I am familiar with quite a few Baptists who hold to the Universalism view. So, while it's not a dominant view among Baptists, it's also not insignificant.

 

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?

Mat 5:48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

Grace and Peace,

I've seen this on many forums in the last few years. It's become very popular. So far I've been unable to square it with the 'whole' of Scripture nor with the attributes of God Almighty.

When I get into these kinds of discussion I always like to start with the attributes of God Almighty because it is in our understanding of His nature that the 'whole' of Scripture takes space in His Likeness and not our own.

God is Holy

When we think of God as holy, we think of Him absolutely free from sin in thought, word, and deed. There is not the slightest taint of sin in Him. He is absolutely pure. As St. John says, "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:15). He cannot in any way condone sin. As Habakkuk says, "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity:" (Hab. 1:13).

One of the main themes in the Old Testament is a declaration and demonstration of God's holiness (Ex. 15:11; Lev. 19:2; 1 Sam. 2:2; 6:20; Job 34:10; Ps. 47:8;89:35; 119:9; Is. 6:3; 57:15; and others). This theme continues in the New Testament (Jn. 17:11; Jas. 1:13; 1 Pet. 1:15-16; 1 Jn. 1:5; Rev. 4:8; 15:4; and others).

God as a holy God will not tolerate sin. It is because of God's holiness that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Rom. 1:18). The frist revelation of God's holiness is a revelation of judgment. He said to Adam and Eve, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen. 2:17). God's judgment against sin reveals His immutability in his holiness.

The acts of judgment in biblical history bear testimony of God's hatred toward sin and His immutability in holiness. The flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the many other acts of judgment in the Scriptures leave us no doubt where God stands on the issue of sin.

The eternal punishment of the wicked with such expressions as, "outer darkness" (Mt. 8:12; 22:13; and 25:30), "furnace of fire" (Mt. 13:42-50), "everlasting fire" (Mt. 18:8; 25:41), "everlasting punishment" (Mt. 25:46), "fire unquenchable" (Mk. 9:43-48), "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Th. 1:9), and "the lake which churneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8 ).

The cross of Jesus Christ also reveals God's immutability in holiness. The cross of Christ is an eternal testimony that God will not forgive sin unless it is first punished. If we see in God a pattern of purity and righteousness but fail to see His hatred of sin, we have failed to understand the biblical view of holiness.

God's holy will is an expression of God's holy nature. As Thiesen says: "In God we have purity of being before purity of willing. God does not will the good because it is good, nor is the good because God wills it, else there would be a good above God or the good would be arbitrary and changeable. Instead, God's will is the expression of his nature, which is holy.'

We are not to imagine that God can by an arbitrary act of will declare a thing to be holy and it be holy. In Islamic thought, the will of Allah is supreme and arbitrary. In Christian thought God's will is always a true expression of His nature. It is incompatible with God's nature to declare one person obligated to the morality of the Ten Commandments and to declare a reverse morality for another. Under such an arrangement, God could reign by whim and fancy. We would not know what to expect next.

Since God's will is an expression of His holy nature, morality is rational. We can discover principles form our study of Scripture and apply them to things not mentioned in the Bible.

Holiness is the basic or fundamental attribute of God. As Thiessen explains: "Because of the fundamental character of this attribute, the holiness of God rather than the love, the power, or the will of God should be given first place. Holiness is the regulative principle of all there is of them; for the throne is established on the basis of His holiness" (Ps. 47:8; 89:14; 97:2).

This in one of the most important observations to be made in a doctrinal study. When love is made the basic attribute of God, it leads to the idea of universal salvation - an idea that finds no support whatever in Scripture. It also leads to compromise in moral issues. Love that is not subject to holiness is too ready to modify and compromise. It is only when holiness, not love, is seen to be the basic attribute of God that the biblical doctrines of Hell and Atonement can be maintained. It is holiness, not love, that sends sinners to Hell. It is holiness, not love, that demanded that sin be punished before God would forgive sin.

Righteousness and justice flow from God's holiness. When we speak of God as righteous, we mean that He is right in all that he does. Righteousness is an overall term that refers to all of God's dealings as being right.

Justice is an aspect of righteousness. God is righteous in His judicial proceedings in handing out punishments and rewards. Remunerative justice is the justice of God that guarantees that obedience will receive its appropriate reward. Retributive justice is the justice of God that guarantees that disobedience will receive its appropriate punishment. Justice is the guardian of God's holiness as well as the realm of heaven.

Note: it is God's Holiness and Righteousness which is the first attribute to be hated by the unrighteous. God's Holiness and Righteousness convicts us in our sin and assaults our ego. It is the first trait of God's to go when man makes God in his own image. It is God's Holiness and Righteousness which cause all who come before Him to experience Awe and to tremble before Him. In the face of God's Holiness we know who will really are and what we really are and we experience in a profound way how insignificant we are before the Almighty.

 

I will agree. But know this, because you took this stand, you will come under attack.

Some on here forget about the fact that God has wrath and hates sin. All some want to quote is John 3:16 all day and had out daisy chains and think God is just a big hug. Now God is Love, but His love is pure love and not tained. Being God is love we need to look at the Bible to see what true love is.

I Cor 13
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
Therefore, good works that bring pride is not love...is it?

5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Therefore, Love is not about us...Its about God's work in us.


6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
Therefore, God does not love those that follow evil.

7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
But God provides and protects the ones He loves

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away
Therefore, all that Christ died for, in pure love, will be saved.

NOW..That is the love of God. He hates sin...and does not love it.


In Christ...James

 

Bound, I totally agree with you and think your post is great! :thumbsup:

But I think what Christian universalists say is that since Jesus did atone for sins, all sins are now forgiven, so everyone goes to heaven.

In other words, they would agree with much of what you posted -- they believe that God is totally righteous, that Jesus had to die for sins, but they also believe this allows everyone access to heaven. I think they might say the lake of fire is only for Satan and his angels (though I'm not sure about that).

Since KenH has admitted to being a universalist, maybe he could correct me if I'm wrong here, or offer further clarification.