Christian Universalism?

Grace and Peace Brother Bob,

Great Posts! Keep the Faith!

God Bless.

 

Grace and Peace Jarthur001,

Thanks for the compliment I truly appreciate the kind words.

I am merely speaking generally over the whole of Scripture and actually I can see what you mean with regards to God not being 'like' us. I understand your point and it is well taken. I simply chaff at the philosophic 'Absolute Mind' theory of God and I see Christians fall into that time and time again. It concerns me.

My response to this is typical toward my response to Calvinism as a whole. I believe the preoccupation with the omniscience of God has ultimately distorted the whole of Scripture to the point that it creates artificial certainties which then undermines man's response to God's Gift of Grace.

With regards to 'love' I don't believe God's Holiness is consumed by God's Love and thus Love is always in unison with God's Righteousness and not at odds with it.

I'm by and large Arminian on this point although I recognize God's Providence in our lives I ultimately believe that our response is unmolested by God's foreknowledge.

My fear is this will draw us off topic but I admit that all of these play a role in our understanding of Scripture.

God Bless.

 

Grace and Peace Smoky,

Sorry I wasn't up before this was addressed by Brother Bob but I've got to put food on the table 'so to speak'. :tongue3:

God Bless.

 

Thanks for all the scriptures. I just think there should be some better ones if we are to believe salvation is impossible beyond the grave. Jesus told us, “if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Jn.12:32. Then Paul states,” as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Rom. 5:18
“ For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, [10] so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [11] and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”. Philip. 2:9-11 If solid scriptures like these are to be bent to mean something else, then where is the solid evidence for doing so.

 

Rom 6:23For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Matt.07
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

Grace and Peace reformedbeliever,

I'm more Arminian than I'd like to admit after reading more of their take on things. I definately believe in 'free-will' as the central attribute of our likeness to our Creator and the abuse of that 'free-will' as the introduction of sin and death for man in His creation.

I don't believe in Limited or Particular Atonement nor do I believe in Total Depravity which further distances me from Calvinism but I would agree that the case can be made with Scripture so I don't beat up on them too much.

 

Grace and Peace reformedbeliever,

Uh Oh Let me put my helmet on then... :tongue3:

What would you view the difference between 'Will' and 'Choice' would be? Do you believe that the Bible uses any hyperbole within it's pages? If so should you take it literally?

 

All men are tried by the lust of the flesh and there is a buffer in a man also called the Inspiration of God almighty teaching him right from wrong and striving with man to choose good over evil. God knew the devil certainly would be striving with man to do evil so God was not going to leave man completely without a way to get out of that situation so in His Soverneignity God made man subject to vanity (follow evil) but not willingly (God never wanted man to perish) but by reason of Him (Jesus Christ) subject the same (man) in Hope (choose to follow to the Good Spirit and Live). Amen, BTW, there is Scripture in this statement.

Some beliefs of who has Scripture are a matter of interptation. peace

 

When it is said that man has a "sinful" nature then it is being said that man chooses to do evil. It is also said that all men have the same choice to choose good but because of this sinful nature they will not choose good. I don't think they realize what they are saying but if a man can choose good but does not because of his sinful nature then man chose evil. So God in His Soverneignty made man so he could choose evil but not good? That does not make sense for If God made man that he could choose evil all man has to do is not choose evil then he would be good. To say otherwise then you would have to say that God is the author of sin, for if he created man with this sinful nature without a choice then all man could do is choose evil therefore God is the author of sin according to some, but not me.

 

Perhaps I should have been more thorough in my explantion of my view. I agree 100% that a leaf does not flutter in the wind apart from God's will. When I say God "stops steering", He is permitting the will of the creature to go its own way, but only inasmuch as it conforms perfectly to His permissive will. In other words, the person sins according to his own will, AND according to God's plan. Since the person is doing the sinning of his own will, the person is fully responsible for the sin. But it would not happen unless God planned it to happen.

Think of it in terms of the story of Joseph. "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." It doesn't say "God permitted it for good", even though one might speculate that this was God's permissive will in action. The brothers did what they did of their own will, and they meant it for evil, exactly according to God's plan for good. The two were in perfect harmony, God was in complete control, yet the brothers still sinned of their own will.

 

1. Leaf does not flutter in the wind apart from God’s will.
So when man sins then it would be God’s will that he sin when the Scripture says its not God’s will that any would perish. Here it is God’s will that man sin.


2. He is permitting the will of the creature to go its own way.
This is just the opposite of 1. Where it was God’s will how the leaf fluttered but now it is the will of man to sin. Here it is the will of man that he sin but God permits it.


3. But only inasmuch as it conforms perfectly to His permissive will.
Here God is just allowing man to sin, because it conforms to God’s will that man sin.

4. A person sins according to his own will but according to God’s plan.
Here man sins of his own will BUT according to God’s planning that man sin. Here man sins of his own will but God planned for him to do it.

5. Since the man is sinning of his own will, he is responsible for the sin.
Here man sins on his own will and is responsible for it but is just the opposite of 4 when it is God’s plan that he sin. Here it turns back to the will of the man.


6. But it would not happen unless God planned it that way.
Here man sinned but God planned it that way.

I wonder, did God make man to sin or did He make man to give Him Glory and honor?
peace, please raying:

 

If God is completely Sovereign and He is then He has ever right to grant man the right to choose and still be sovereign. I tell you one thing God don't do and that is to speak both ways. I guess anyone could say they agree they only have to pick one part or the other. peace:thumbs:

 

the person is fully responsible for the sin. But it would not happen unless God planned it to happen.

God is in absolute control of all His creation, but yet, not the author of sin.

HUH!!!