Christian Universalism?

[bound]

Grace and Peace Brother Bob,

Great Posts! Keep the Faith!

God Bless.

 

[bound]

Hello Bound,

1st you give good argument. I enjoy your post.

Grace and Peace Jarthur001,

Thanks for the compliment I truly appreciate the kind words.

Are you talking about the winepress and wrath of God? I am sure God expresses His love, anger, hate, wrath what have ya. I just do not think it is linked to emotions as we know emotions. Our love can change going by what we know. Being that God knows all, His love, hate, wrath....will never change. Or...This is how I see it.

I am merely speaking generally over the whole of Scripture and actually I can see what you mean with regards to God not being 'like' us. I understand your point and it is well taken. I simply chaff at the philosophic 'Absolute Mind' theory of God and I see Christians fall into that time and time again. It concerns me.

And this is what I'm sure of. If God is love, and He is,.. then His love will never change. What could God learn tomorrow, that He does not know today?

When we claim God is love, we are saying all love comes from God and we would have no love apart from God for all that we know of love and all that is love comes from God. For God is not only the quintessence of love, but also the essence of love.

1 Cor 13....
Love NEVER fails.

Grained I hold to Gods pure love because I am a Calvinist. If God does not have love that is pure and unchanging, Calvinisim does not work. Calvinisim is based on the pure love of Christ.

My response to this is typical toward my response to Calvinism as a whole. I believe the preoccupation with the omniscience of God has ultimately distorted the whole of Scripture to the point that it creates artificial certainties which then undermines man's response to God's Gift of Grace.

With regards to 'love' I don't believe God's Holiness is consumed by God's Love and thus Love is always in unison with God's Righteousness and not at odds with it.

I'm by and large Arminian on this point although I recognize God's Providence in our lives I ultimately believe that our response is unmolested by God's foreknowledge.

My fear is this will draw us off topic but I admit that all of these play a role in our understanding of Scripture.

God Bless.

 

[bound]

Yes but observe how Paul speaks of the same thing in Romans 5:18 (NASB-U) :
“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.”

This referrs to more than just resurrection here. It refers to justification from condemnation that fell to all men! We know from verse 17 that this grace must be received, but doesn’t the stament in verse 18 reveal that eventially there will be a time when all will believe and be justified? Is there a specific verse in the Bible that says for sure that it’s impossible for to be saved in the next life?

Grace and Peace Smoky,

Sorry I wasn't up before this was addressed by Brother Bob but I've got to put food on the table 'so to speak'. :tongue3:

God Bless.

 

[Smoky]

Thanks for all the scriptures. I just think there should be some better ones if we are to believe salvation is impossible beyond the grave. Jesus told us, “if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Jn.12:32. Then Paul states,” as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Rom. 5:18
“ For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, [10] so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [11] and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”. Philip. 2:9-11 If solid scriptures like these are to be bent to mean something else, then where is the solid evidence for doing so.

 

[Brother Bob]

Rom 6:23For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Matt.07
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[reformedbeliever]

IMO, and although this is just my opinion I do believe there is Biblical support, sin is not a "thing" that can be created, but the lack of alignment with God. All God has to do to "create" sin is to allow a self-willed creature to do things his own way, which is not going to be in alignment with God's way. That's not God creating moral evil. That's simply the inevitable result when God stops doing the steering.

The problem here is that God stops doing the steering. I believe He upholds all His creation. I do not think a leaf flutters in the wind without His involvement and providential care. Some would say that God would be the ultimate cause if He did stop steering. For example, when calvinist say that God sends no one to hell, He just allows them to continue in thier own sinful nature. The arminian would say that isn't their God! Anyone? (im calvinist by the way):smilewinkgrin:

 

[bound]

The problem here is that God stops doing the steering. I believe He upholds all His creation. I do not think a leaf flutters in the wind without His involvement and providential care. Some would say that God would be the ultimate cause if He did stop steering. For example, when calvinist say that God sends no one to hell, He just allows them to continue in thier own sinful nature. The arminian would say that isn't their God! Anyone? (im calvinist by the way):smilewinkgrin:

Grace and Peace reformedbeliever,

I'm more Arminian than I'd like to admit after reading more of their take on things. I definately believe in 'free-will' as the central attribute of our likeness to our Creator and the abuse of that 'free-will' as the introduction of sin and death for man in His creation.

I don't believe in Limited or Particular Atonement nor do I believe in Total Depravity which further distances me from Calvinism but I would agree that the case can be made with Scripture so I don't beat up on them too much.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Grace and Peace reformedbeliever,

I'm more Arminian than I'd like to admit after reading more of their take on things. I definately believe in 'free-will' as the central attribute of our likeness to our Creator and the abuse of that 'free-will' as the introduction of sin and death for man in His creation.

I don't believe in Limited or Particular Atonement nor do I believe in Total Depravity which further distances me from Calvinism but I would agree that the case can be made with Scripture so I don't beat up on them too much.

Grace and peace to you too brother bound. I don't think you will have to worry too much about beating us calvinist up... most of the biblical arguments i've seen are *way* on the side of calvinist. When you say "free will" , I think what you really mean is freedom of choice. The Bible says we are by nature children of wrath.... among a lot of other choice scriptures that point to the depravity of man. What is our nature? Could it be our innermost being? Could it be who we are? How about our will? Same thing? I think so. So, if our wills are by nature children of wrath... I'd say our will is in bondage to sin. Do you believe in God's providence? Do you make a choice in a vaccuum? I know all our choices are determined by outside factors... or they would be amoral. God puts those outside factors in place so that we "freely" choose in a manner that will be consistent with His Will or decree. God causes all things to work together for the good of those who love Him, those who are called according to His purposes. Is God's will more important than ours? Think about it. Grace and peace.

 

[bound]

Grace and peace to you too brother bound. I don't think you will have to worry too much about beating us calvinist up... most of the biblical arguments i've seen are *way* on the side of calvinist.

Grace and Peace reformedbeliever,

Uh Oh Let me put my helmet on then... :tongue3:

When you say "free will" , I think what you really mean is freedom of choice. The Bible says we are by nature children of wrath.... among a lot of other choice scriptures that point to the depravity of man. What is our nature? Could it be our innermost being? Could it be who we are? How about our will? Same thing? I think so. So, if our wills are by nature children of wrath... I'd say our will is in bondage to sin. Do you believe in God's providence? Do you make a choice in a vaccuum? I know all our choices are determined by outside factors... or they would be amoral. God puts those outside factors in place so that we "freely" choose in a manner that will be consistent with His Will or decree. God causes all things to work together for the good of those who love Him, those who are called according to His purposes. Is God's will more important than ours? Think about it. Grace and peace.

What would you view the difference between 'Will' and 'Choice' would be? Do you believe that the Bible uses any hyperbole within it's pages? If so should you take it literally?

 

[Brother Bob]

All men are tried by the lust of the flesh and there is a buffer in a man also called the Inspiration of God almighty teaching him right from wrong and striving with man to choose good over evil. God knew the devil certainly would be striving with man to do evil so God was not going to leave man completely without a way to get out of that situation so in His Soverneignity God made man subject to vanity (follow evil) but not willingly (God never wanted man to perish) but by reason of Him (Jesus Christ) subject the same (man) in Hope (choose to follow to the Good Spirit and Live). Amen, BTW, there is Scripture in this statement.

Some beliefs of who has Scripture are a matter of interptation. peace

 

[Brother Bob]

When it is said that man has a "sinful" nature then it is being said that man chooses to do evil. It is also said that all men have the same choice to choose good but because of this sinful nature they will not choose good. I don't think they realize what they are saying but if a man can choose good but does not because of his sinful nature then man chose evil. So God in His Soverneignty made man so he could choose evil but not good? That does not make sense for If God made man that he could choose evil all man has to do is not choose evil then he would be good. To say otherwise then you would have to say that God is the author of sin, for if he created man with this sinful nature without a choice then all man could do is choose evil therefore God is the author of sin according to some, but not me.

 

[npetreley]

The problem here is that God stops doing the steering. I believe He upholds all His creation. I do not think a leaf flutters in the wind without His involvement and providential care. Some would say that God would be the ultimate cause if He did stop steering. For example, when calvinist say that God sends no one to hell, He just allows them to continue in thier own sinful nature. The arminian would say that isn't their God! Anyone? (im calvinist by the way):smilewinkgrin:

Perhaps I should have been more thorough in my explantion of my view. I agree 100% that a leaf does not flutter in the wind apart from God's will. When I say God "stops steering", He is permitting the will of the creature to go its own way, but only inasmuch as it conforms perfectly to His permissive will. In other words, the person sins according to his own will, AND according to God's plan. Since the person is doing the sinning of his own will, the person is fully responsible for the sin. But it would not happen unless God planned it to happen.

Think of it in terms of the story of Joseph. "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." It doesn't say "God permitted it for good", even though one might speculate that this was God's permissive will in action. The brothers did what they did of their own will, and they meant it for evil, exactly according to God's plan for good. The two were in perfect harmony, God was in complete control, yet the brothers still sinned of their own will.

 

[Brother Bob]

Perhaps I should have been more thorough in my explantion of my view. I agree 100% that a leaf does not flutter in the wind apart from God's will. When I say God "stops steering", He is permitting the will of the creature to go its own way, but only inasmuch as it conforms perfectly to His permissive will. In other words, the person sins according to his own will, AND according to God's plan. Since the person is doing the sinning of his own will, the person is fully responsible for the sin. But it would not happen unless God planned it to happen.

1. Leaf does not flutter in the wind apart from God’s will.
So when man sins then it would be God’s will that he sin when the Scripture says its not God’s will that any would perish. Here it is God’s will that man sin.


2. He is permitting the will of the creature to go its own way.
This is just the opposite of 1. Where it was God’s will how the leaf fluttered but now it is the will of man to sin. Here it is the will of man that he sin but God permits it.


3. But only inasmuch as it conforms perfectly to His permissive will.
Here God is just allowing man to sin, because it conforms to God’s will that man sin.

4. A person sins according to his own will but according to God’s plan.
Here man sins of his own will BUT according to God’s planning that man sin. Here man sins of his own will but God planned for him to do it.

5. Since the man is sinning of his own will, he is responsible for the sin.
Here man sins on his own will and is responsible for it but is just the opposite of 4 when it is God’s plan that he sin. Here it turns back to the will of the man.


6. But it would not happen unless God planned it that way.
Here man sinned but God planned it that way.

I wonder, did God make man to sin or did He make man to give Him Glory and honor?
peace, please raying:

 

[reformedbeliever]

Npet says....Perhaps I should have been more thorough in my explantion of my view. I agree 100% that a leaf does not flutter in the wind apart from God's will. When I say God "stops steering", He is permitting the will of the creature to go its own way, but only inasmuch as it conforms perfectly to His permissive will. In other words, the person sins according to his own will, AND according to God's plan. Since the person is doing the sinning of his own will, the person is fully responsible for the sin. But it would not happen unless God planned it to happen.

Think of it in terms of the story of Joseph. "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." It doesn't say "God permitted it for good", even though one might speculate that this was God's permissive will in action. The brothers did what they did of their own will, and they meant it for evil, exactly according to God's plan for good. The two were in perfect harmony, God was in complete control, yet the brothers still sinned of their own will.

Amen npet, we are in complete agreement. God is in absolute control of all His creation, but yet, not the author of sin. Because we think God's decrees include the sinful behavior of man, and all that happens, that does not mean God is the author of sin. The arminian thinks that if we say God decrees everything that happens, then that makes God sinful or the author of sin. This is false. If God is completely sovereign, (and He is) then everything that happens.... He decrees. Either the arminian has to say God is not completely sovereign, or God is without power to stop sin. If they say God is powerful enough to stop sin, but doesn't.... then they are making God the author of sin, themselves.

 

[Brother Bob]

If God is completely Sovereign and He is then He has ever right to grant man the right to choose and still be sovereign. I tell you one thing God don't do and that is to speak both ways. I guess anyone could say they agree they only have to pick one part or the other. peace:thumbs:

 

[reformedbeliever]

Bound says....What would you view the difference between 'Will' and 'Choice' would be? Do you believe that the Bible uses any hyperbole within it's pages? If so should you take it literally?

Hello bound. I think we should separate our wills from our choice. Instead of free will, I'd say free moral agent. Our will is not free, but in bondage to sin, in the unregenerate state. I would not say our choices are free, but will always be consistent with God's decreed will. God providentially causes all things to work out according to His will, and will put outside factors in place to make us determine our choices within HIs will. I hope I was able to articulate that in an understandable way. I need writing classes. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Brother Bob]

the person is fully responsible for the sin. But it would not happen unless God planned it to happen.

God is in absolute control of all His creation, but yet, not the author of sin.

HUH!!!