I don't think we can say one is more dangerous than another. That has been one of the biggest lies on the political right. It is asking just how much cancer is good. The answer is none.
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Christians in politics
- Thread starter JonC
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Those things I mention are Trojans inside the Church though!
Yes, they are. So is secular politics.
The reason secular politics is so atrocious a sin is in its nature. It veils itself in morality and destroys churches from within. All Christians have to do is be faithful to Christ. Yet many will be led away, lured by secular morality.
Sometimes the seed falls among thorns.
The 2 main parties have very different views on morality!
Muslims and Wiccans have very different views on morality as well. It does not mean I'm joining which ever group I think is better.
Politics are not satanic by nature! Can be if Christians stay totally out, as can happen to all areas of culture and society!
AGAIN, I said the same thing. I do not know what you and @Revmitchell missed.
Politics is essential for any people. Secular politics is evil by definition. What makes it evil is it replaces the Kingdom with the World.
Just like intimacy is not a sin, but last is; having a drink is not, drunkenness is...so is politics evil when transfered from the Kingdom to the World. It is a misappropriation of the governance God has given His people.
But for the 100th time - politics is not evil. Secular politics (GOP, DNC, etc) is ant- Christ and worldly. Not because of politics but because of the focus of politics (it is misplaced).
Christians can be involved in politics.... Just make sure that their primary focus remains Lord Jesus and His Kingdom work!
Christians can do a lot of things. Hopefully their focus is primarily on Christ and not on the unChristian things they may do. The danger, however, is that little leaven leavens the whole loaf. I think that trying to serve God and man can be problematic.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Our bible study is doing this chapter this week. These verses are relevant to this discussion.
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim 2:1-4
The Roman Emperor was most likely Nero at that time who we know began a smear campaign and systematic persecution of Christians who he scapegoated for the Great Fire of Rome.
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim 2:1-4
The Roman Emperor was most likely Nero at that time who we know began a smear campaign and systematic persecution of Christians who he scapegoated for the Great Fire of Rome.
Methinks you are talking more like the Pharisees here!
Virtually ANYTHING you do, get involved in, or people you associate with (including your loved ones), has the potential of "being a little leaven".
I would say that Jesus did PRECISELY this!!
If, IMHO, you avoid all you profess to be "dangerous", then covid lockdown would suit your beliefs to a "T"!
However, if you feel that this is how God has led you, then good luck & have at it!! You have my sincere blessing.
All these statements are your opinions repeated quite often but with few bible verses actually stating the same.
All by inference but you keep going on many political threads, giving your opinion of certain policies or political figures which at times have been negative. If it is so evil why do you go there? Are you trying to make those that do feel guilty?
If "secular politics is evil" but "politics is essential for any people" what are you talking about? "Any people" includes Christians and non Christians doesn't it?
And if you want Christians to stay out of secular politics while "politics is essential" what is Christian politics like? Not "the world of man"?
I sure don't understand what you are doing.
Why don't you explain it and make it really simple to understand and then maybe it will be easy to agree with you. Then you can tell me to leave the forum again and return when I am more mature.
We are all at different levels here aren't we?
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It is not what one is involved with but how one is involved with that thing.
As I said, it is essential that Christians to be involved with the World - to engage the Workd. But it is equally essential that Christians not become a part of that World.
Well, as far as I know I have never asked you to leave the forum until you were more mature (the last interaction I recall with you was a discussion via PM on the kingdom of God). But I will try to answer your questions.
I will, of course, express my views on topics just as others express theirs on the same topics. I am glad you see a consistency in my views.
Do I believe that talking about politics is evil? No, of course not. That is what we are doing now. That is what Scripture does.
Do I believe that politics is evil? No, of course not. Politics is concerned with the affairs of a group, society or government (hence the name "politics").
Do I believe that world politics is evil? Yes, of course I do. Paul tells us that he offers no judgment on those "outside the church", Scripture tells us that the World is opposed to God, that we cannot serve the World and be fit for the Kingdom of God, that these principles and powers are "darkness", and so on.
Why do I enter discussions on the political forum? Because I can. Just as Democrats talk about the evils of the GOP and Republicans talk about the evils of the DNC, I like to talk about the holiness of the Kingdom of God and the lives that Christians should live.
If politics is so evil why do I go there? Politics is not evil (i.e., the politics or concerns of the Kingdom of God, the Church, etc.). What is evil is when we take those responsibilities (political responsibilities) and apply them to the World rather than to the Church. This is what the early church was talking about when they justified not voting, not holding office, etc. and said that their role is to do those things within the assembly, NEVER within the World.
And if you want Christians to stay out of secular politics while "politics is essential" what is Christian politics like? First of all, context matters. The point I repeatedly made was that politics is necessary. The World will be engaged in Worldly politics (politics concerned with the "powers of darkness"; "the flesh"; "the World", "Satan"). Christians should be concerned with Christian politics (the affairs of God's kingdom, of evangelism, of being a holy people, of obedience to God).
Not "the world of man"? I am not sure what you mean here. I am talking about Christians not being of this world. By "world" I mean the principles and powers of darkness, of this world which is condemned, which is perishing...the world to which Scripture warns us not to become entangled.
I cannot explain my position any differently (sorry). So just let me repeat it here and then you can ask me to clarify which part I failed to articulate well.
I believe that Christians are wrong to engage in secular politics. Well...that's about it. That is what I have been saying. You can't serve two masters.
Now...WHY do I believe Christians should not be involved in secular politics? (this is a bonus....you didn't ask it, but probably should have). Jesus did not engage in secular politics. He engaged in the politics of the Kingdom. He did not condemn Rome or social justice issues of his day. Neither did the Disciples. Neither did the early church. NOT only that, but the early church wrote defenses of Christianity explaining why Christians refuse to vote, to hold political office, to serve in the military, etc. This changed with the RCC. Also, Scripture tells us that the World is condemned and is fading. Scripture tells us that we are not to become entangled in the affairs of the World. Scripture tells us that the World is an enemy (it is principles of darkness).
Questions?
Thank you for a gracious response.
You can probably realize that I am still ticked off about our previous confrontation.
Chapter and verse:
Politics vs The Kingdom
my stimulus #56
your response #58
I told my wife about this most recent and she looked at me as if to say, "Yeah, you are immature."
So be it.
I'm not leaving the forum from a chastisement by a moderator and pastor whose authority I respected who then overstepped his boundaries.
It was because I challenged one of your highly held opinions about how you post.
Maybe the powers here will 86 me for something else.
I live sort of looking over my shoulder.
I am not saying you don't have a right to give an opinion about anything political.
I have even benefitted from some of your observations.
That is the nature of our country: free speech includes politics and that model is here on the Baptist Board.
Many of us have been involved in politics in some manner most of our lives from as soon as we were in grade school.
But you say, "secular politics is evil".
Then you spend much of your time giving opinions about many many topics, not just about how politics and the kingdom interrelate or do not interrelate.
That is my issue.
Show how "kingdom politics" work to the exclusion of secular politics.
Not that there are kingdom politics.
I agree with you that they exist.
Is it all us junkies are not hearing the Spirit of God telling us to wash our hands of something deeply embedded in our culture that also has the potential for fighting sin and doing good?
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Christ's prayer for his disciples is helpful.
I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
John 17:13-19
It is a tricky balance that Christians throughout history have struggled to maintain. Separation, sanctification and holiness balanced with engagement, mission and love. Separate too much and you become the anabaptists (amish, mennonites), some monastic orders who have little impact on the world in spreading the gospel. Engage too much and you become part of the world like previous Christian organizations that are now secular (ie YMCA) or part of the same amoral corrupt power struggles that taint the gospel message like the RCC in the middle ages, the crusades and modern Christian nationalism.
I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
John 17:13-19
It is a tricky balance that Christians throughout history have struggled to maintain. Separation, sanctification and holiness balanced with engagement, mission and love. Separate too much and you become the anabaptists (amish, mennonites), some monastic orders who have little impact on the world in spreading the gospel. Engage too much and you become part of the world like previous Christian organizations that are now secular (ie YMCA) or part of the same amoral corrupt power struggles that taint the gospel message like the RCC in the middle ages, the crusades and modern Christian nationalism.
My response about maturity concerned your statement "Your "soldier's" conscience is destroying me."
If your statements about politics were destroying me then it would be appropriate that I leave the political forum.
Likewise, if you believe my view that Christians are to exist in but not of the world, that they are to be engaged in Kingdom politics (the affairs of the Kingdom) and nortsecular politics (the affairs of the World) is truly destroying you then it is, I believe, appropriate for you to leave the politics forum.
Simply put, it is not worth engaging other people's view of secular politics if doing so will destroy you.
There is so much more to life than politics. My words were not intended to offend, but to encourage you to leave the topic if it causes you harm.
I would appreciate it if you let your wife know - ask her if engaging me about politics is worth the destruction of her husband. I suspect she and I would agree that it is not.
If you have changed your view, then perhaps we can look at how my (and the early church) understanding of secular politics is able to destroy Christians.
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