Christians in politics

[SGO]

Well JonC I see you maintaining the stonewall, and yet invite me again to leave.

"My words were not intended to offend" better work on that idea a little more.

Here's a little sarcasm, "I would appreciate it if you let your wife know - ask her if engaging me about politics is worth the destruction of her husband. I suspect she and I would agree that it is not."

Shall I invite you over for a coffee and you can continue your discussion with her privately without me as a buffer?

Exit BB kingdom, stage left.

You did not destroy me; only some damage but I will continue, with some hard feelings, only muted.

Keep posting with your positive and negative criticisms of what ever you have an opinion on, with my blessing.

That is part of being free.

Could you please try to develop a simpler statement about how your kingdom politics intertwines with every given opinion, not just for me but to convince the other "doubters."

Here I am free to hurt others and I do, sometimes with and often without apology.

"If you have changed your view, then perhaps we can look at how my (and the early church) understanding of secular politics is able to destroy Christians."

Here is your justification to make any kind of negative statement you like and still call it kingdom politics.

 

[JonC]

Well JonC I see you maintaining the stonewall, and yet invite me again to leave.

"My words were not intended to offend" better work on that idea a little more.

Here's a little sarcasm, "I would appreciate it if you let your wife know - ask her if engaging me about politics is worth the destruction of her husband. I suspect she and I would agree that it is not."

Shall I invite you over for a coffee and you can continue your discussion with her privately without me as a buffer?

Exit BB kingdom, stage left.

You did not destroy me; only some damage but I will continue, with some hard feelings, only muted.

Keep posting with your positive and negative criticisms of what ever you have an opinion on, with my blessing.

That is part of being free.

Could you please try to develop a simpler statement about how your kingdom politics intertwines with every given opinion, not just for me but to convince the other "doubters."

Here I am free to hurt others and I do, sometimes with and often without apology.

"If you have changed your view, then perhaps we can look at how my (and the early church) understanding of secular politics is able to destroy Christians."

Here is your justification to make any kind of negative statement you like and still call it kingdom politics.

I am not sure why you think I am asking or have ever asked you to leave the Baptist Board.

You said my conscience was "destroying" you. I responded that if you believe my views here on the political forum was destroying you then you should leave (the political forum) alone until such time as you can engage people like me without feeling it is dangerous.

I did not mean that as an insult. I did not mean that to offend.

We all have to know our limitations and refrain from engaging in areas we believe could "destroy" us or even cause hard feelings.

I do not understand why or how you believe refraining from secular politics destroys Christians.

Lately I have been studying the early church on this topic and have been amazed at their absolute separation from secular politics (no voting, no public office, no military, ect ) and yet how much they engaged their culture simply by standing for Christ and functioning as a kingdom people.

That is why I mention the early church. Not because they are an authority but because I found their example astounding (it made me ask "how?").

Apparently I have not defined politics adequately. I will try again

Here is Webster's definition : the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

Scripture defines Kingdom politics. It is how we treat one another, how we are to live, how we exist as a people, how we interact with the World, how we exercise discipline, etc.

In ways, Kingdom politics and secular politics are similar.

Secular politics is still concerned with the same types of things (how we treat one another, how we are to live, how we exist as a people, how we interact with the World, how we exercise discipline, etc.).

Both Kingdom politics and secular politics are defined by the powers and principles that comprise each.

But they are also very different. The difference is the power behind each. One serves God, the other Satan. One is life, the other death. One looks to reconcile people to God from a World which is perishing, the other seeks to redeem the worldly systems.

If you are local, yes, I would love to have coffee with you and your wife.

 

[JonC]

Christ's prayer for his disciples is helpful.

I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

John 17:13-19

It is a tricky balance that Christians throughout history have struggled to maintain. Separation, sanctification and holiness balanced with engagement, mission and love. Separate too much and you become the anabaptists (amish, mennonites), some monastic orders who have little impact on the world in spreading the gospel. Engage too much and you become part of the world like previous Christian organizations that are now secular (ie YMCA) or part of the same amoral corrupt power struggles that taint the gospel message like the RCC in the middle ages, the crusades and modern Christian nationalism.

I think the difference is expressed well as being in, but not of, the world.

The early church was criticized for not participating on politics, not voting, not holding office, ect. Their answer was those things represented the powers from which they were saved.

In Contra Celsum, Origen argued that Christians are involved with those activities within the Kingdom, within the church, and to participate in that manner in the World would be unthinkable.

Yet the Church did engage the world around them. The World took note (as evidenced by Celsus' complaints against the Christians). But more than that, people in the world were influenced by the faithfulness of those early believers- by not only their refrain from secular politics but also by their love for one another and even the pagans around them.

 

[SGO]

I am not sure why you think I am asking or have ever asked you to leave the Baptist Board.

You said my conscience was "destroying" you. I responded that if you believe my views here on the political forum was destroying you then you should leave (the political forum) alone until such time as you can engage people like me without feeling it is dangerous.

I did not mean that as an insult. I did not mean that to offend.

We all have to know our limitations and refrain from engaging in areas we believe could "destroy" us or even cause hard feelings.

I do not understand why or how you believe refraining from secular politics destroys Christians.

Lately I have been studying the early church on this topic and have been amazed at their absolute separation from secular politics (no voting, no public office, no military, ect ) and yet how much they engaged their culture simply by standing for Christ and functioning as a kingdom people.

That is why I mention the early church. Not because they are an authority but because I found their example astounding (it made me ask "how?").

Apparently I have not defined politics adequately. I will try again

Here is Webster's definition : the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

Scripture defines Kingdom politics. It is how we treat one another, how we are to live, how we exist as a people, how we interact with the World, how we exercise discipline, etc.

In ways, Kingdom politics and secular politics are similar.

Secular politics is still concerned with the same types of things (how we treat one another, how we are to live, how we exist as a people, how we interact with the World, how we exercise discipline, etc.).

Both Kingdom politics and secular politics are defined by the powers and principles that comprise each.

But they are also very different. The difference is the power behind each. One serves God, the other Satan. One is life, the other death. One looks to reconcile people to God from a World which is perishing, the other seeks to redeem the worldly systems.

If you are local, yes, I would love to have coffee with you and your wife.

Thank you for making a public apology.

And thank you for making a statement.

I see also a well used couch.

"I do not understand why or how you believe refraining from secular politics destroys Christians."

I never said that about other Christians.

I said it about me because I thought you were being hypocritical in posting all the time in political forums while maintaining politics is evil, secular politics.

You made negative comments (opinions) about issues at times without linking them to kingdom ideas.

I could not see how a man who is moderator and a pastor would invite me to leave the forum.

So hopefully it will all go away and we will play nice.

 

[JonC]

Thank you for making a public apology.

I see also a well used couch.

"I do not understand why or how you believe refraining from secular politics destroys Christians."

I never said that about other Christians.

I said it about me because I thought you were being hypocritical in posting all the time in political forums while maintaining politics is evil, secular politics.

You made negative comments (opinions) about issues at times without linking them to kingdom ideas.

I could not see how a man who is moderator and a pastor would invite me to leave the forum.

So hopefully it will all go away and we will play nice.

I was trying to address your post (I did not understand your comment "If you have changed your view, then perhaps we can look at how my (and the early church) understanding of secular politics is able to destroy Christians").

I think you misunderstood me. First, I was a preacher and am a teacher. I was never a pastor. Second, I never asked you to leave the BB. You said my conscience was "destroying" you to which I replied if that was true you may want to leave the forum (the political forum).

The two forums that generate the most heat are politics and calv/ arm. There are topics from which I refrain because they can become personal. I do not try to silence opinions I find offensive, instead I just do not get into those discussions.

Likewise, if you believe the political forum can be damaging to you, then refrain for your sake. Don't ask others to remain silent, just step back, reevaluate the situation, and then decide if you should continue or look for another topic to discuss.

I post often about Christians being involved in secular politics because I have seen so many people and churches hurt by exchanging the gospel for a social platform. I believe the DNC us evil, but I believe the GOP is even more dangerous to the Church.

I believe this to the extent that I would be unfaithful to remain silent. I know people find my position offensive, but I suggest it has more to do with their involvement with secular politics than my abstaining from secular politics.

For my part, I am not sure how we started not playing nice. Until today I was unaware you were offended by my post. I would rather you let me know if I offend you (often it may be poor word choices on my part) than remain silent to keep the peace.

I promise you, there us nothing you can post that will offend me or cause sore feelings. I am old...ish and stubborn and unless you are 3 feet away with a baseball bat then we're good.

 

[SGO]

I was trying to address your post (I did not understand your comment "If you have changed your view, then perhaps we can look at how my (and the early church) understanding of secular politics is able to destroy Christians").

I think you misunderstood me. First, I was a preacher and am a teacher. I was never a pastor. Second, I never asked you to leave the BB. You said my conscience was "destroying" you to which I replied if that was true you may want to leave the forum (the political forum).

The two forums that generate the most heat are politics and calv/ arm. There are topics from which I refrain because they can become personal. I do not try to silence opinions I find offensive, instead I just do not get into those discussions.

Likewise, if you believe the political forum can be damaging to you, then refrain for your sake. Don't ask others to remain silent, just step back, reevaluate the situation, and then decide if you should continue or look for another topic to discuss.

I post often about Christians being involved in secular politics because I have seen so many people and churches hurt by exchanging the gospel for a social platform. I believe the DNC us evil, but I believe the GOP is even more dangerous to the Church.

I believe this to the extent that I would be unfaithful to remain silent. I know people find my position offensive, but I suggest it has more to do with their involvement with secular politics than my abstaining from secular politics.

For my part, I am not sure how we started not playing nice. Until today I was unaware you were offended by my post. I would rather you let me know if I offend you (often it may be poor word choices on my part) than remain silent to keep the peace.

I promise you, there us nothing you can post that will offend me or cause sore feelings. I am old...ish and stubborn and unless you are 3 feet away with a baseball bat then we're good.

"I promise you, there us nothing you can post that will offend me or cause sore feelings. " better man than I.

"I am old...ish and stubborn" Not me. No ishue here.

 

[JonC]

"I promise you, there us nothing you can post that will offend me or cause sore feelings. " better man than I.

"I am old...ish and stubborn" Not me. No ishue here.

We just have to keep in mind that we are posting on a forum. People have different ways of posting. Often we read intent or emotion into people's words.

That is why it is impossible for me to be offended by what people say in these forums. For the most part interactions are limited to posts...i.e , statements about a topic. People do not know me personally, therefore they cannot offend me.

For all you guys really know, I'm a 25 year old supermodel taking a break from my photo shoot to post on this forum ..... ok....that's an exaggeration. I'd probably be more like 27 years old.

 

[SGO]

Pics would not help.

 

[Yeshua1]

I was trying to address your post (I did not understand your comment "If you have changed your view, then perhaps we can look at how my (and the early church) understanding of secular politics is able to destroy Christians").

I think you misunderstood me. First, I was a preacher and am a teacher. I was never a pastor. Second, I never asked you to leave the BB. You said my conscience was "destroying" you to which I replied if that was true you may want to leave the forum (the political forum).

The two forums that generate the most heat are politics and calv/ arm. There are topics from which I refrain because they can become personal. I do not try to silence opinions I find offensive, instead I just do not get into those discussions.

Likewise, if you believe the political forum can be damaging to you, then refrain for your sake. Don't ask others to remain silent, just step back, reevaluate the situation, and then decide if you should continue or look for another topic to discuss.

I post often about Christians being involved in secular politics because I have seen so many people and churches hurt by exchanging the gospel for a social platform. I believe the DNC us evil, but I believe the GOP is even more dangerous to the Church.

I believe this to the extent that I would be unfaithful to remain silent. I know people find my position offensive, but I suggest it has more to do with their involvement with secular politics than my abstaining from secular politics.

For my part, I am not sure how we started not playing nice. Until today I was unaware you were offended by my post. I would rather you let me know if I offend you (often it may be poor word choices on my part) than remain silent to keep the peace.

I promise you, there us nothing you can post that will offend me or cause sore feelings. I am old...ish and stubborn and unless you are 3 feet away with a baseball bat then we're good.

There is NOTHING in the scriptures that would forbid a Christian from being in politics!

 

[SGO]

There is NOTHING in the scriptures that would forbid a Christian from being in politics!

Why don't you post some bible verses that are positive to participating in politics.

 

[Yeshua1]

Why don't you post some bible verses that are positive to participating in politics.

Apostle paul exercised his rights as a Roman citizen many times, did not see that as being "worldly"

 

[JonC]

There is NOTHING in the scriptures that would forbid a Christian from being in politics!

In politics, no. In secular politics, yes.

 

[Quantrill]

In politics, no. In secular politics, yes.

What's the difference?

Quantrill

 

[poor-in-spirit]

Please consider that there is no Scripture that supports the idea of Christ's disciples participating in Satan's political systems.

Paul's invoke of his roman citizenship was to free him from bonds and allow him to continue his ministry. It had nothing to do with the affairs of the roman government nor to choose whom would be their government's leaders.

Believers are no longer citizens of this nation nor this world. We have now become foreigners, pilgrims and strangers to this nation and this world.

Under the Mosaic Law, participation in government was encouraged. Remember, this Law functioned to address the needs of national Israel and their physical kingdom. The New Testament Church is distinct from Old Testament Israel in that it’s a spiritual Kingdom governed by spiritual principles looking PAST this physical world. As such, its recourse is neither physical nor political.

There are several reasons for this:
In the Old Testament God had a physical Kingdom and He used this physical Kingdom for His Glory.

In the New Testament God has no physical Kingdom on earth but a Spiritual one. God is no longer raising and lowering kings or kingdoms. He has no physical, earthly interest in the Kingdoms and affairs on earth during our Age. Of course He knows exactly what will happen throughout the Church age but He influences none of it. Consider for a moment why God in the New Testament tells us to pray for those in human government authority? There is no command in the Old Testament similar to that. It is because He did not install them and He has no influence over any of them by His own Choice and His Own Righteous Principals. Our effectual and fervent prayers for these worldly leaders are to be Spiritual only in nature for their salvation. In the last age or generation, God works only through individuals, not governments or populations. Governments have been given over by God to satan and satan has full control over them as the "god" of this world.

God will sort the nations out after mystery babylon and all her harlot denominations are destroyed and He Returns to establish FINALLY a Righteous Kingdom on earth separating the goats from the sheep.

Until then, world governments and political establishments are under the temporal power and authority of the “god of this world”. They are blind to God’s principles and refuse to answer to His authority (regardless of any of their claims):

Matthew 4: 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corthinians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Please consider Romans 13: 1-2. Our Lord instituted government authority and His Command refers to the offices (institutions) and never specific people. Compared to those Old Testament instances our Lord raised or lowered kings by name. No instance of that occurs in the New Testament including Revelation for a clear reason. Which is very relevant since Daniel's visions describe the last several kingdoms on earth prior to our Lord's Return in Flaming Fire as beasts.

Citizenship?

 

[JonC]

What's the difference?

Quantrill

Webster defines politics as the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

I think it reasonable that politics could be applied to the Christian's involvement in the activities of the Church. That was the early church argument (that Christians fill offices, assume leadership roles and contribute to the governing of the Church but not the World).

 

[SGO]

Hard to be politically involved (secularly) when the government is persecuting you. (early Christians vs Jewish hierarchy and Rome)

http://www.repentuk.com/Articles/Political Christianity.pdf

 

[JonC]

Hard to be politically involved (secularly) when the government is persecuting you. (early Christians vs Jewish hierarchy and Rome)

http://www.repentuk.com/Articles/Political Christianity.pdf

Have you read Contra Celsum?

Origen wrote it in 248 AD. In it he defends Christianity against Celcus. One of the charges was the Christians refusal to engage in Roman politics (Celcus was a pagan and believed political involvement was a patriotic duty). The counter-argument is Christians are involved in the governance of the Kingdom to which they belong, but not the World.

(Pay attention to LXXV).

 

[SGO]

Couple hundred years after most of the New Testament and "early church".

Well I guess that long ago it's all "early".

I don't think Christians have much to do with kingdom government beyond prayer, evangelism, and local and even national denominational church issues.

Isn't Christ the One that governs His kingdom?

It's all His.

Ok then those that preach no secular involvement, to be consistent, should preach against involvement in secular arts, cultural activities, or anything secular.

 

[JonC]

In us, all ardor in the pursuit of glory and honor is dead. So we have no pressing inducement to take part in your public meetings. Nor is there anything more entirely foreign to us than affairs of state. – Tertullian

All the powers and dignities of this world are only alien to, but are enemies of God. Through them, punishments have been determined against God’s servants. Through them, too, penalties prepared for the impious are ignored. – Tertullian

We are to scorn trying to ingratiate ourselves with kings or any other men – not only if theirfavor is to be won by murderers, licentiousness, or deeds of cruelty – but even if it involves impiety towards God, or any servile expressions of flattery and fawning. – Origen

Celsus also urges us to “take office in the government of the country, if that is required for the maintenance of the laws and the support of religion.” But we recognise in each state the existence of another national organization founded by the Word of God, and we exhort those who are mighty in word and of blameless life to rule over Churches. Those who are ambitious of ruling we reject; but we constrain those who, through excess of modesty, are not easily induced to take a public charge in the Church of God. And those who rule over us well are under the constraining influence of the great King, whom we believe to be the Son of God, God the Word. And if those who govern in the Church, and are called rulers of the divine nation–that is, the Church–rule well, they rule in accordance with the divine commands, and never suffer themselves to be led astray by worldly policy. And it is not for the purpose of escaping public duties that Christians decline public offices, but that they may reserve themselves for a diviner and more necessary service in the Church of God–for the salvation of men. And this service is at once necessary and right. They take charge of all–of those that are within, that they may day by day lead better lives, and of those that are without, that they may come to abound in holy words and in deeds of piety; and that, while thus worshipping God truly, and training up as many as they can in the same way, they may be filled with the word of God and the law of God, and thus be united with the Supreme God through His Son the Word, Wisdom, Truth, and Righteousness, who unites to God all who are resolved to conform their lives in all things to the law of God. – Origen

I owe no duty to forum, campaign, or senate. I stay awake for no public function. I make no effort to occupy a platform. I am no office seeker. I have no desire to smell out political corruption. I shun the voter’s booth, the juryman’s bench. I break no laws and push no lawsuits; I will not serve as a magistrate or judge. I refuse to do military service. I desire to rule over no one – I have withdrawn from worldly politics! Now my only politics is spiritual – how that I might be anxious for nothing except to root out all worldly anxieties and care.”- Tertullian

As for you, you are a foreigner in this world, a citizen of Jerusalem, the city above. Our citizenship, the apostle says, is in heaven.” – Tertullian

If anyone be a soldier or in authority, let him be taught not to oppress or to kill or to rob, or to be angry or to rage and afflict anyone. But let those rations suffice him which are given to him. But if they wish to be baptized in the Lord, let them cease from military service or from the authority, and if not let them not be received. – Testament of our Lord (Cadoux The Early Christian Attitude to War p. 121-126)

 

[JonC]

Couple hundred years after most of the New Testament and "early church".

Well I guess that long ago it's all "early".

I don't think Christians have much to do with kingdom government beyond prayer, evangelism, and local and even national denominational church issues.

Isn't Christ the One that governs His kingdom?

It's all His.

Ok then those that preach no secular involvement, to be consistent, should preach against involvement in secular arts, cultural activities, or anything secular.

Paul refused to speak judgment against the sins of the World (he said those outside are not his concern).

Do you have a passage that instructs Christians to become involved in secular politics?