Christians in politics

I am not sure why you think I am asking or have ever asked you to leave the Baptist Board.

You said my conscience was "destroying" you. I responded that if you believe my views here on the political forum was destroying you then you should leave (the political forum) alone until such time as you can engage people like me without feeling it is dangerous.

I did not mean that as an insult. I did not mean that to offend.

We all have to know our limitations and refrain from engaging in areas we believe could "destroy" us or even cause hard feelings.

I do not understand why or how you believe refraining from secular politics destroys Christians.

Lately I have been studying the early church on this topic and have been amazed at their absolute separation from secular politics (no voting, no public office, no military, ect ) and yet how much they engaged their culture simply by standing for Christ and functioning as a kingdom people.

That is why I mention the early church. Not because they are an authority but because I found their example astounding (it made me ask "how?").

Apparently I have not defined politics adequately. I will try again

Here is Webster's definition : the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

Scripture defines Kingdom politics. It is how we treat one another, how we are to live, how we exist as a people, how we interact with the World, how we exercise discipline, etc.

In ways, Kingdom politics and secular politics are similar.

Secular politics is still concerned with the same types of things (how we treat one another, how we are to live, how we exist as a people, how we interact with the World, how we exercise discipline, etc.).

Both Kingdom politics and secular politics are defined by the powers and principles that comprise each.

But they are also very different. The difference is the power behind each. One serves God, the other Satan. One is life, the other death. One looks to reconcile people to God from a World which is perishing, the other seeks to redeem the worldly systems.

If you are local, yes, I would love to have coffee with you and your wife.

 

I think the difference is expressed well as being in, but not of, the world.

The early church was criticized for not participating on politics, not voting, not holding office, ect. Their answer was those things represented the powers from which they were saved.

In Contra Celsum, Origen argued that Christians are involved with those activities within the Kingdom, within the church, and to participate in that manner in the World would be unthinkable.

Yet the Church did engage the world around them. The World took note (as evidenced by Celsus' complaints against the Christians). But more than that, people in the world were influenced by the faithfulness of those early believers- by not only their refrain from secular politics but also by their love for one another and even the pagans around them.

 

I was trying to address your post (I did not understand your comment "If you have changed your view, then perhaps we can look at how my (and the early church) understanding of secular politics is able to destroy Christians").

I think you misunderstood me. First, I was a preacher and am a teacher. I was never a pastor. Second, I never asked you to leave the BB. You said my conscience was "destroying" you to which I replied if that was true you may want to leave the forum (the political forum).

The two forums that generate the most heat are politics and calv/ arm. There are topics from which I refrain because they can become personal. I do not try to silence opinions I find offensive, instead I just do not get into those discussions.

Likewise, if you believe the political forum can be damaging to you, then refrain for your sake. Don't ask others to remain silent, just step back, reevaluate the situation, and then decide if you should continue or look for another topic to discuss.

I post often about Christians being involved in secular politics because I have seen so many people and churches hurt by exchanging the gospel for a social platform. I believe the DNC us evil, but I believe the GOP is even more dangerous to the Church.

I believe this to the extent that I would be unfaithful to remain silent. I know people find my position offensive, but I suggest it has more to do with their involvement with secular politics than my abstaining from secular politics.

For my part, I am not sure how we started not playing nice. Until today I was unaware you were offended by my post. I would rather you let me know if I offend you (often it may be poor word choices on my part) than remain silent to keep the peace.

I promise you, there us nothing you can post that will offend me or cause sore feelings. I am old...ish and stubborn and unless you are 3 feet away with a baseball bat then we're good.

 

We just have to keep in mind that we are posting on a forum. People have different ways of posting. Often we read intent or emotion into people's words.

That is why it is impossible for me to be offended by what people say in these forums. For the most part interactions are limited to posts...i.e , statements about a topic. People do not know me personally, therefore they cannot offend me.

For all you guys really know, I'm a 25 year old supermodel taking a break from my photo shoot to post on this forum ..... ok....that's an exaggeration. I'd probably be more like 27 years old.

 

In politics, no. In secular politics, yes.

 

Webster defines politics as the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

I think it reasonable that politics could be applied to the Christian's involvement in the activities of the Church. That was the early church argument (that Christians fill offices, assume leadership roles and contribute to the governing of the Church but not the World).

 

Have you read Contra Celsum?

Origen wrote it in 248 AD. In it he defends Christianity against Celcus. One of the charges was the Christians refusal to engage in Roman politics (Celcus was a pagan and believed political involvement was a patriotic duty). The counter-argument is Christians are involved in the governance of the Kingdom to which they belong, but not the World.

(Pay attention to LXXV).

 

In us, all ardor in the pursuit of glory and honor is dead. So we have no pressing inducement to take part in your public meetings. Nor is there anything more entirely foreign to us than affairs of state. – Tertullian

All the powers and dignities of this world are only alien to, but are enemies of God. Through them, punishments have been determined against God’s servants. Through them, too, penalties prepared for the impious are ignored. – Tertullian

We are to scorn trying to ingratiate ourselves with kings or any other men – not only if theirfavor is to be won by murderers, licentiousness, or deeds of cruelty – but even if it involves impiety towards God, or any servile expressions of flattery and fawning. – Origen

Celsus also urges us to “take office in the government of the country, if that is required for the maintenance of the laws and the support of religion.” But we recognise in each state the existence of another national organization founded by the Word of God, and we exhort those who are mighty in word and of blameless life to rule over Churches. Those who are ambitious of ruling we reject; but we constrain those who, through excess of modesty, are not easily induced to take a public charge in the Church of God. And those who rule over us well are under the constraining influence of the great King, whom we believe to be the Son of God, God the Word. And if those who govern in the Church, and are called rulers of the divine nation–that is, the Church–rule well, they rule in accordance with the divine commands, and never suffer themselves to be led astray by worldly policy. And it is not for the purpose of escaping public duties that Christians decline public offices, but that they may reserve themselves for a diviner and more necessary service in the Church of God–for the salvation of men. And this service is at once necessary and right. They take charge of all–of those that are within, that they may day by day lead better lives, and of those that are without, that they may come to abound in holy words and in deeds of piety; and that, while thus worshipping God truly, and training up as many as they can in the same way, they may be filled with the word of God and the law of God, and thus be united with the Supreme God through His Son the Word, Wisdom, Truth, and Righteousness, who unites to God all who are resolved to conform their lives in all things to the law of God. – Origen

I owe no duty to forum, campaign, or senate. I stay awake for no public function. I make no effort to occupy a platform. I am no office seeker. I have no desire to smell out political corruption. I shun the voter’s booth, the juryman’s bench. I break no laws and push no lawsuits; I will not serve as a magistrate or judge. I refuse to do military service. I desire to rule over no one – I have withdrawn from worldly politics! Now my only politics is spiritual – how that I might be anxious for nothing except to root out all worldly anxieties and care.”- Tertullian

As for you, you are a foreigner in this world, a citizen of Jerusalem, the city above. Our citizenship, the apostle says, is in heaven.” – Tertullian

If anyone be a soldier or in authority, let him be taught not to oppress or to kill or to rob, or to be angry or to rage and afflict anyone. But let those rations suffice him which are given to him. But if they wish to be baptized in the Lord, let them cease from military service or from the authority, and if not let them not be received. – Testament of our Lord (Cadoux The Early Christian Attitude to War p. 121-126)

 

Paul refused to speak judgment against the sins of the World (he said those outside are not his concern).

Do you have a passage that instructs Christians to become involved in secular politics?