Christians in politics

[SGO]

Paul refused to speak judgment against the sins of the World (he said those outside are not his concern).

Do you have a passage that instructs Christians to become involved in secular politics?

JonC,

I don't need to answer your question. You quote the Fathers as if they were the bible but they are not. Beyond the good things they wrote weren't there some stinky things too?

And you side stepped my remarks by putting me on the defensive.

Here it is again:

"Ok then those that preach no secular involvement, to be consistent, should preach against involvement in secular arts, cultural activities, or anything secular."

That is where non-involvement in anything secular leads.

Also no cigars, not too much alcohol, no girlie pics, doesn't the list even in the bible go further?

The "fruit " of the natural man.

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man:
Matthew 15:19-20a

Unfortunately, even the Christian man does it.

Thank God for 1John 1:9.

The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately wicked:
who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9

Are you saying that does not apply to us?

No one is filled with the Spirit of Christ 24/7.

As we have therefore opportunity,
let us do good unto all men,
especially unto them that are of the household of faith.
Galatians 6:10

 

[JonC]

JonC,

I don't need to answer your question. You quote the Fathers as if they were the bible but they are not. Beyond the good things they wrote weren't there some stinky things too?

And you side stepped my remarks by putting me on the defensive.

Here it is again:

"Ok then those that preach no secular involvement, to be consistent, should preach against involvement in secular arts, cultural activities, or anything secular."

That is where non-involvement in anything secular leads.

Also no cigars, not too much alcohol, no girlie pics, doesn't the list even in the bible go further?

The "fruit " of the natural man.

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man:
Matthew 15:19-20a

Unfortunately, even the Christian man does it.

Thank God for 1John 1:9.

The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately wicked:
who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9

Are you saying that does not apply to us?

No one is filled with the Spirit of Christ 24/7.

As we have therefore opportunity,
let us do good unto all men,
especially unto them that are of the household of faith.
Galatians 6:10

I quoted Paul (the apostle). It was a 1 Corinthians reference.

And we do need to do good to all men, especially to believers.

Again, what passages say we need to be involved with secular politics?

Paul said it was none of his business (he judges those inside). Jesus said the World is an enemy of God, that the powers of the World are Satan's powers.

Why is it wrong for a Christian to refrain from secular politics to engage the World instead with the gospel of Jesus Christ?

The Spirit dwells in us 24/7.

 

[SGO]

I quoted Paul (the apostle). It was a 1 Corinthians reference.

And we do need to do good to all men, especially to believers.

Again, what passages say we need to be involved with secular politics?

Paul said it was none of his business (he judges those inside). Jesus said the World is an enemy of God, that the powers of the World are Satan's powers.

Why is it wrong for a Christian to refrain from secular politics to engage the World instead with the gospel of Jesus Christ?

The Spirit dwells in us 24/7.

Here it is again:

"Ok then those that preach no secular involvement, to be consistent, should preach against involvement in secular arts, cultural activities, or anything secular."

Hey don't forget you quoted all those fathers too.

Why don't you remember doing that?

Are they not like your verses?

This, by the way, is a deflection made to induce guilt, "Why is it wrong for a Christian to refrain from secular politics to engage the World instead with the gospel of Jesus Christ?"

Nobody said it was a substitute for sharing the gospel.

Only you.

And this one on a technicality:

"The Spirit dwells in us 24/7."

So you never sin or grieve Him?

He does not leave but He gets hurt.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30

I don't have to post verses that God says it's ok to be involved in secular politics.

You are my proof of it.

Your stated purpose might be working for the kingdom here on the forum but look at all the things you post negatively about policies and politicians.

Especially attacking politicians.

That's not "kingdom" behavior.

Oh right, it is exposing their evil deeds like it says to do in the bible.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.
Ephesians 5:11

You are not in fellowship with them, I know that.

What about politicians that some of us on the board think are doing something good?

No, even if you don't know what they are doing, but there is something else bad about them, you will rail on them, in effect defeating the good.

Oh, that's right, Jesus exposed secular politicians.

No, He attacked the religious politicians.

Did He attack Pilate?

Nope. He did not attack secular politicians.

You are a political junkie like the rest of us but won't admit it.

All of us are "exposing" to some extent.

You said I'm just expressing my thoughts, I'm not telling any one to do anything.

Fooled me JonC.

Why are we doing this now then?

We are not all right about everything but we don't tell our fellows not to talk secular politics or act on beliefs because we are spiritual beings and it's not pleasing to God.

We have an opportunity to do good.

This is it.

 

[JonC]

Hey don't forget you quoted all those fathers too.

Why don't you remember doing that?

Are they not like your verses?

I don't have to post verses that God says it's ok to be involved in secular politics.

You are my proof of it.

Your stated purpose might be working for the kingdom here on the forum but look at all the things you post negatively about policies and politicians.

Especially attacking politicians.

That's not kingdom behavior.

Oh right, it is exposing their evil deeds like it says to do in the bible.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.
Ephesians 5:11

You are not in fellowship with them, I know that.

What about politicians that some of us on the board think are doing something good?

No even if you don't know what they are doing, but there is something else bad about them, you will rail on them, in effect defeating the good.

Oh, that's right, Jesus exposed secular politicians. No, He attacked the religious politicians.

Did He attack Pilate? Nope. He did not attack secular politicians.

You are a political junkie like the rest of us but won't admit it.

All of us are "exposing" to some extent.

You said I'm just expressing my thoughts, I'm not telling any one to do anything.

Fooled me JonC.

Why are we doing this now then?

We are not all right about everything but we don't tell our fellows not to talk secular politics or act on beliefs because we are spiritual beings and it's not pleasing to God.

We have opportunity to do good.

This is it.

Yes, I did quote the Early Church Father's as well as Scripture.

But my question remains- what passages can you offer that instructs Christians to involve themselves with secular politics?

You say we "cannot be filled by the Spirit 24-7", but should not that be our goal?

Jesus did not address secular politics. He addressed those who were in kingdom positions (He addressed the Jewish leaders - NOT the secular government). You are correct, and that is my point.

I do not "rail" on politicians. As Paul said, we are to judge those on the inside, not the outside.

I have called Trump the best President we have had in decades, and I stand by that. But I never railed on Biden.

All I have done is point out how quickly Christians devote themselves to what Jesus called our adversary (the World). And I have asked "to what end?"

I am not a "political junkie" (I was at one time). You are off base there.

 

[SGO]

JonC. Let's stop.

It's my bed time and I think you twist the things I say and add extraneous ideas in, that sound good but are not.

You have not answered my remark and I'm tired of this not-so-merry-go-round.

Do I have to search the threads to come up with your own words that counter this statement?

"I do not "rail" on politicians. As Paul said, we are to judge those on the inside, not the outside.

I have called Trump the best President we have had in decades"

That's what I mean.

See you in the political threads.

 

[SGO]

I could not go to sleep.

I remembered something you brought up that I did say but not on this thread.

It was about spending time on this forum rather than going out and sharing the gospel.

I admit I don't share the gospel much.

My fault and no one else's.

I also know I would find some other activity to avoid aggressive evangelism.

So I was wrong about that and apologize for it.

 

[Quantrill]

Webster defines politics as the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

I think it reasonable that politics could be applied to the Christian's involvement in the activities of the Church. That was the early church argument (that Christians fill offices, assume leadership roles and contribute to the governing of the Church but not the World).

So if a Christian is a plumber, he should only plumb Christian homes. Don't be a plumber in the world.

Quantrill

 

[JonC]

So if a Christian is a plumber, he should only plumb Christian homes. Don't be a plumber in the world.

Quantrill

No. I am not saying we refuse to engage the World.

You have artists, musicians, plumbers, and tent menders. What you do you do for God.

A Christian might be a photographer. But it would be wrong for the Christian to be a photographer in the porn industry. A Christian might be a salesman, but he should not be a drug dealer.

A Christian will want to engage the World, but it is wrong for a Christian to engage the World by participating in the powers of the World.

Christians are not here to try and make the World act godly. Christian are here to engage people with the ministry of reconciliation - pleading that they be reconciled to God.

The World is condemned already. The World is perishing. We are to live as citizens of the Kingdom of God, which means separating ourselves from the powers and principles of the World in order to exist as a holy people, as a light to the World.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have called Trump the best President we have had in decades, and I stand by that. But I never railed on Biden.

You have criticized Democrats. Oh and you need your head examined if you hold to your Trump comment. There has never been a president in our history to foment insurrection until this character.

 

[Yeshua1]

In politics, no. In secular politics, yes.

ALL politics would be "secular" though, in the sense the Lord Jesus has not set up shop on earth yet!

 

[Yeshua1]

What's the difference?

Quantrill

There is none!

 

[Yeshua1]

Couple hundred years after most of the New Testament and "early church".

Well I guess that long ago it's all "early".

I don't think Christians have much to do with kingdom government beyond prayer, evangelism, and local and even national denominational church issues.

Isn't Christ the One that governs His kingdom?

It's all His.

Ok then those that preach no secular involvement, to be consistent, should preach against involvement in secular arts, cultural activities, or anything secular.

He has it as all or nothing, but we can and should be part of the areas of our society and culture, such as the arts, tv, literature, etc!

 

[Yeshua1]

Paul refused to speak judgment against the sins of the World (he said those outside are not his concern).

Do you have a passage that instructs Christians to become involved in secular politics?

There were Christians among some of our Founders, correct?
Harvard, Yale and Princeton were establish to educate and instruct pastors and teachers of Christianity, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

You have criticized Democrats. Oh and you need your head examined if you hold to your Trump comment. There has never been a president in our history to foment insurrection until this character.

Trump NEVER did that!

 

[Yeshua1]

I quoted Paul (the apostle). It was a 1 Corinthians reference.

And we do need to do good to all men, especially to believers.

Again, what passages say we need to be involved with secular politics?

Paul said it was none of his business (he judges those inside). Jesus said the World is an enemy of God, that the powers of the World are Satan's powers.

Why is it wrong for a Christian to refrain from secular politics to engage the World instead with the gospel of Jesus Christ?

The Spirit dwells in us 24/7.

So Christians cannot be Judges then?No one should even aspire to try to be a Supreme Court judge then if holding to Jesus as Lord?

 

[JonC]

You have criticized Democrats. Oh and you need your head examined if you hold to your Trump comment. There has never been a president in our history to foment insurrection until this character.

I probably do need my head examined, but not for the Trump comment. I believe insurrection is a higher threshold.

I do criticize the DNC. But not really the Democrats. We cannot expect the World to be anything but the Workd (Democrat or Republican). People have good reasons for supporting their party (rarely the reason their political opponents have for condemning them).

 

[JonC]

ALL politics would be "secular" though, in the sense the Lord Jesus has not set up shop on earth yet!

No. The politics involved in God's Kingdom (mostly expressed in the Sermon on the Plain and the Sermon on the Mount) are not secular. Paul's instruction of how Christians are to act in the World and in the Church is not secular.

And just denying that God is here, present in His people, does not make it so. Not recognizing God's rule does not negate His authority.

The Kingdom is here. Those who are not in the kingdom in this lifetime will not be in the Kingdom when it comes in its fuller realization.

 

[JonC]

There were Christians among some of our Founders, correct?
Harvard, Yale and Princeton were establish to educate and instruct pastors and teachers of Christianity, correct?

There are Christians in all walks of life. There are Christian Democrats and Christian Republicans. I never denied this. There are communist Christians and capitalist Christians.

 

[JonC]

So Christians cannot be Judges then?No one should even aspire to try to be a Supreme Court judge then if holding to Jesus as Lord?

That is what Paul wrote, corrct?

 

[Yeshua1]

That is what Paul wrote, corrct?

No