Christians, War, and Violence

[GoodTidings]

If you condone violence in any form, you might as well be preaching it.

No, I don't condone violence in any form. Not at all. But there is violence in hunting, in food production and there is justifiable violence defending one's family. That is not condemned at all in the Bible. It's only condemned by false teachers like you who insist on perverting the Word of God.

 

[Adonia]

If you condone violence in any form, you might as well be preaching it.

Jesus became quite violent the day he overturned the tables in the Temple. It was a "righteous" violence to be sure, but violence nonetheless. Like others have said here, you complete non-violence interpretation is a false interpretation of the scriptures. As the Holy Writ says there is a time for everything - did you miss that one?

 

[Adonia]

I think we are to love Jesus more than we do our family.

We are to put God first in our lives and then our family, but we are not to ignore our families and their safety if the time ever comes that they are threatened. Protecting them fulfills God's command to us to take care of those whom He has entrusted to our care. So it is clear, you read the "putting God first" command in error also.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

Ya passed right over Eccl. 3:3 - "a time to KILL".

What violence did Jesus use? He punched, kicked, & beat the merchants in the temple with a knotted rope. I'm sure they didn't leave willingly til he "persuaded" them it's be in their best interest to do so.

You're a funny guy, roby. I notice , you pass over everything except "a time to kill". That speaks volumes about your heart.... pins and prickles. The point is, Chris did not KILL ! That does not mean that at the appropriate time , (His return) that He will not destroy His enemies. Thank You God for YOU, when we are weak You are strong.

You do not get the big picture in any discussion do you? Tunnel vision and narrow mindedness are not positive attributes.
Christ, giving people a spanking and killing ,are two different things that has been the point of my responses. . Also, protecting a person from violence is not even the main issue of what I said. The point is the manner in which Christ brought forth the Good news. And that men should not enslave themselves (By choice) in the system of worldly governments if they have received the good news . Sometimes in that system you are expected to do some bad things . Those things are not based on righteousness but are based on an agenda.

We have a merciful God , He will judge our intent if we are ever put in a position that may provoke us to kill. I say I know what I would do, I say I would probably be weak, but I will not say Christ preached a Gospel contrary to peace. God is good My Christ , is Lord, His ways are right and His decrees are just, I hope I can live up to His standard, but admittedly I know He would have to completely step in for me to withstand that evil day, if it should come before me.

And what you said, still makes no difference to what I said. In the New Covenant things changed, His servants spread the kingdom of heaven through peace. Something you should learn to do. All I get from you when you disagree is, either I am in a cult or some other ridiculous label .

It is when you are persecuted for your faith or even threatened with death , you are to be in submission to that and not retaliate by physical means . That is why Christ corrected Peter when He struck the soldier and cut off His ear. We are to be subject to the powers. Christ hammered that point home in the garden. It is not even about intruders breaking into your house. The point is where is the line drawn? CHRISTIANS DO NOT SPREAD THE GOSPEL BY FEAR OR USE OF THE WEAPONS OF WAR TO SPREAD CHRIST'S MESSAGE. Nor do they rise up and overthrow kingdoms with swords.

That is the CRUX of what people with a heart like Christ's are saying. Obviously men's kingdoms need laws, cops , soldiers etc..... The followers of Christ are to build up the faith in all people and are called to something HIGHER , our focus is not deadly violence. No matter how you turn it, we are to spread the gospel of peace, because Christ said so. Yesh, I see you are that type.

I have to laugh, your the type that would condemn the RCC for its pursuit of what it deems its enemies, yet if you want to , you agree with that approach for your own desires. That type, you know that hypocritical type that calls people Cultist , but then speaks a gospel that is has not been handed down to the faithful. Seems you design your own sort of Christianity which only gives yourself concessions , and it's basis is not peace but confrontation and violence. Have at it, makes no difference to the gospel of peace.
Ephesians 6:14-15
The Armor of God
…14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness arrayed, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness of the gospel of peace.

Even with all the hypothetical discussion on how we might act in this or that situation, or how we have acted, makes no difference to what Christ taught, all the rest is just human weakness. For sure His TRUE followers throughout Christian History are those who did not take up arms and go out as conquerors with weapons.

How do you feel about the Crusades or Protestant persecutions or the Inquisitions ? Maybe those who perpetrated those things were just angry. Their anger can be more than just a spanking with the use of deadly force ,because Christ condones that. Yeah RIGHT! Don't think so!

Ya passed right over Eccl. 3:3 - "a time to KILL".

What violence did Jesus use? He punched, kicked, & beat the merchants in the temple with a knotted rope. I'm sure they didn't leave willingly til he "persuaded" them it's be in their best interest to do so.

REALLY? I guess then you are only selective as to what men can do that? After all you are comparing ( a spanking ) to war, and the use of deadly violence, when clearly it was only a spanking. It would seem then, you should not show bias against those who share your same sentiments and stop judging what men of the "wrath" have done in the name of their brand of Christianity throughout Christian history.

 

[Van]

We have no NT scripture supporting Christians using violence to defend themselves or anyone else. Jesus taught the opposite.

Seeing the blind spots in others ought to give us pause. We too are fallible, and undoubtedly have blind spots.

Governments are part of God's plan and Governments do not carry the sword for nothing.

Rom 13:3
For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;

Rom 13:4
for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

Seeing the blind spots in others ought to give us pause. We too are fallible, and undoubtedly have blind spots.

Governments are part of God's plan and Governments do not carry the sword for nothing.

Rom 13:3
For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;

Rom 13:4
for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

That is right, but that has nothing to do with Christians using carnal weapons. I think every True Christian would agree , that we are to submissive to the authorities.
Romans:13:1-
Submission to Authorities
(1 Peter 2:13-20)

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. 2Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. 4For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.

5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to authority, not only to avoid punishment, but also as a matter of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes. For the authorities are God’s servants, who devote themselves to their work. 7Pay everyone what you owe him: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

Love Fulfills the Law
(Leviticus 19:9-18)

8Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”a and any other commandments, are summed up in this one decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”b 10Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Put On Christ

11And do this, understanding the occasion. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day has drawn near. So let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14Instead, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh.

 

[Van]

That is right, but that has nothing to do with Christians using carnal weapons. I think every True Christian would agree , that we are to submissive to the authorities.
Romans:13:1-
Submission to Authorities
(1 Peter 2:13-20)

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. 2Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. 4For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.

5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to authority, not only to avoid punishment, but also as a matter of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes. For the authorities are God’s servants, who devote themselves to their work. 7Pay everyone what you owe him: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

Love Fulfills the Law
(Leviticus 19:9-18)

8Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”a and any other commandments, are summed up in this one decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”b 10Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Put On Christ

11And do this, understanding the occasion. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day has drawn near. So let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14Instead, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh.

And how do these truths, referring to our behavior acting as individuals, apply to Christians acting within the ministry of government authority?

 

[1689Dave]

Seeing the blind spots in others ought to give us pause. We too are fallible, and undoubtedly have blind spots.

Governments are part of God's plan and Governments do not carry the sword for nothing.

Rom 13:3
For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;

Rom 13:4
for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

But Christians are not the magistrate. The unbeliever is. Christians were city officials in the NT but never took the sword.

 

[1689Dave]

We are to put God first in our lives and then our family, but we are not to ignore our families and their safety if the time ever comes that they are threatened. Protecting them fulfills God's command to us to take care of those whom He has entrusted to our care. So it is clear, you read the "putting God first" command in error also.

If you obey Jesus and your family gets killed for it, you and they are better off if you believe Paul's words about life with the Lord is far better than life in this world. Why scrap and kill only to be robbed of your reward and suffer death from sickness and old age?

 

[Van]

But Christians are not the magistrate. The unbeliever is. Christians were city officials in the NT but never took the sword.

There are plenty of Christians described as acting within government authority, such as the Centurion.

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus became quite violent the day he overturned the tables in the Temple. It was a "righteous" violence to be sure, but violence nonetheless. Like others have said here, you complete non-violence interpretation is a false interpretation of the scriptures. As the Holy Writ says there is a time for everything - did you miss that one?

Right, but he was fulfilling scripture. Nuclear war based on Jesus' whip is a far stretch, don't you think?

 

[1689Dave]

There are plenty of Christians described as acting within government authority, such as the Centurion.

Some of the converts were hookers too.

 

[1689Dave]

No, I don't condone violence in any form. Not at all. But there is violence in hunting, in food production and there is justifiable violence defending one's family. That is not condemned at all in the Bible. It's only condemned by false teachers like you who insist on perverting the Word of God.

But loving enemies forbids violence in any form for any reason.

 

[1689Dave]

But what you're saying is that you would love the rapist more than you love your wife. You would love the rapist and allow him to do as he pleases. You clearly don't love your wife.

I love my wife and know she will have a better eternity through non violence than she would have rejecting Jesus' words.

 

[Rob_BW]

Think of it this way. If someone kills me or my family, we go to heaven upholding Jesus' words. If we kill them, we violate Jesus' words and live to suffer old age and go to heaven on less honorable terms. If I stand by and let someone kill an unbeliever, the unbeliever has less to suffer in hell than if they had a life time of sin to pay for. Pacifism is the only sane choice.

Where do you see Scripture telling us there will be degrees differing of punishment in hell?

 

[Van]

Some of the converts were hookers too.

Those within government did not turn away because of their faith or God's commands, they stayed within the ministry of God.

 

[Van]

But loving enemies forbids violence in any form for any reason.

No, that is an overstatement. Again, our actions acting as individuals is not the same as our actions acting as part of government authority to protect others.

 

[1689Dave]

No, that is an overstatement. Again, our actions acting as individuals is not the same as our actions acting as part of government authority to protect others.

= German Christians killing American and British Christians and visa versa.

 

[1689Dave]

Those within government did not turn away because of their faith or God's commands, they stayed within the ministry of God.

We know Cornelius left the military and the early Church would not baptize military members unless they repented. (according to history).

 

[1689Dave]

Where do you see Scripture telling us there will be degrees differing of punishment in hell?

Jesus mentions beating with few stripes as opposed to beating with many stripes etc.