Christians, War, and Violence

[Earth Wind and Fire]

While Peter had a short temper, he was a fisherman, not a trained warrior.

I'm trying to imagine what kinda blow Peter struck. Were he behind Malchus, & swung right-handed, the blow shoulda continued into Malchus' shoulder if he'd swung straight down. Were he facing Malchus, he mighta struck horizontally with his left hand & Malchus tried to duch the blow the blow, but failed to completely dodge it.

And there's no Scriptural record record of how Malchus reacted & what he did afterwards when Jesus picked up hie ear & re-attached it. (Nor any secular record, either.)

Forensics aside, if the Lord gave them permission to carry a weapon then wouldn’t it be sensible to assume they were for protection and in wielding them ( deadly accurate or not ) He condoned violence in certain applications?

 

[Rob_BW]

Jesus mentions beating with few stripes as opposed to beating with many stripes etc.

This topic might be worthy of a separate thread.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But loving enemies is a direct command.

So I can’t love them but protect myself if they threaten violence?!? That’s absurd.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This topic might be worthy of a separate thread.

Why don’t you start it Rob?

 

[1689Dave]

So I can’t love them but protect myself if they threaten violence?!? That’s absurd.

If you can kill someone an follow Jesus, let me in on it.

 

[Jerome]

So the draft is only for non believers

Christians should not be unequally yoked with unbelievers in the military.

1689Dave, what did you do during Viet-Nam? Or did you have a high number?

 

[Rob_BW]

Why don’t you start it Rob?

I'm busy, my centurion is on my case about sharpening my sword, and then we have to go to the motor pool and pull maintenance on the chariots.

 

[robycop3]

Think of it this way. If someone kills me or my family, we go to heaven upholding Jesus' words. If we kill them, we violate Jesus' words and live to suffer old age and go to heaven on less honorable terms. If I stand by and let someone kill an unbeliever, the unbeliever has less to suffer in hell than if they had a life time of sin to pay for. Pacifism is the only sane choice.

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will dig ditches for those who don't !

Sgt. York. our most-famous WW1 soldier, at first was a "conchy", til he saw the error of his way. He was a devout Christian in ths Church of Christ in Christian Union, a Methodist-like denom, not a SDA or JW as some believed.

 

[1689Dave]

1689Dave, what did you do during Viet-Nam? Or did you have a high number?

I got drafted as a I-O (civilian) conscientious objector.

 

[1689Dave]

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will dig ditches for those who don't !

Sgt. York. our most-famous WW1 soldier, at first was a "conchy", til he saw the error of his way. He was a devout Christian in ths Church of Christ in Christian Union, a Methodist-like denom, not a SDA or JW as some believed.

Just follow Jesus and it will make sense.

 

[InTheLight]

It's all in the Bible. Lord of hosts in the OT = Lord of armies.

I was referring to your awesome mind-reading ability when you asserted that God planned WWII for the world and not for the Church.

I would also point out that you are stating God is a god of war and you reference the Old Testament but then you argue that Christians should not use violence because Jesus taught differently in the New Testament. So there is a contradiction in your thinking.

 

[1689Dave]

I was referring to your awesome mind-reading ability when you asserted that God planned WWII for the world and not for the Church.

I would also point out that you are stating God is a god of war and you reference the Old Testament but then you argue that Christians should not use violence because Jesus taught differently in the New Testament. So there is a contradiction in your thinking.

Jesus forbids violence from his followers. God causes all war in judgement on nations. As revealed in the OT.

 

[InTheLight]

Jesus forbids violence from his followers. God causes all war in judgement on nations.

And you don't see the contradiction there?

You seem to be saying this about God, "Do as I say, not as I do."

 

[1689Dave]

And you don't see the contradiction there?

You seem to be saying this about God, "Do as I say, not as I do."

God has a plan for believers. He has a plan for unbelievers.

 

[Adonia]

Right, but he was fulfilling scripture. Nuclear war based on Jesus' whip is a far stretch, don't you think?

Violence is violence, only the means of the violence is changed. It was the best thing that we dropped 2 such weapons on Japan. My father was waiting in the wings to assault the Japanese homeland when they were dropped. His life was most likely saved, as were many other Americans, including tens of thousands of Japanese.

Look, since there is a heavenly afterlife, what is the problem with all this dying that which is part and parcel of the living experience? No human can get there without it happening to them, the concern of Christ is that we are not to live our lives following Satan and the world, yet we allowed to protect ourselves, our families and our nation. Any other conclusion is a false reading of the Scriptures.

Like I asked earlier, have you moved out of your house and moved in less fortunate people so you can truly follow Christ's command that we be our brothers keeper? Why do you get to live in such luxury while others are sleeping on the streets?

 

[1689Dave]

Violence is violence, only the means of the violence is changed. It was the best thing that we dropped 2 such weapons on Japan. My father was waiting in the wings to assault the Japanese homeland when they were dropped. His life was most likely saved, as were many other Americans, including tens of thousands of Japanese.

Look, since there is a heavenly afterlife, what is the problem with all this dying that which is part and parcel of the living experience? No human can get there without it happening to them, the concern of Christ is that we are not to live our lives following Satan and the world, yet we allowed to protect ourselves, our families and our nation. Any other conclusion is a false reading of the Scriptures.

Like I asked earlier, have you moved out of your house and moved in less fortunate people so you can truly follow Christ's command that we be our brothers keeper? Why do you get to live in such luxury while others are sleeping on the streets?

It still remains, war is no place for the believer.

 

[robycop3]

If you know God controls all, even the death of a sparrow, it's easier to have faith in these matters.

But God expects us to do what we can for ourselves, including defending ourselves when necessary.

 

[InTheLight]

God has a plan for believers. He has a plan for unbelievers.

Well, maybe in response I should state a non-sequitur. It seems to be your forte.

 

[robycop3]

It still remains, war is no place for the believer.

Maybe not STARTING a war, but participating to defend one's people, family, land, etc.

I was a USN corpsman before I was saved. Did my salvation change my view of war? Not a bit.

 

[robycop3]

You're a funny guy, roby. I notice , you pass over everything except "a time to kill". That speaks volumes about your heart.... pins and prickles. The point is, Chris did not KILL ! That does not mean that at the appropriate time , (His return) that He will not destroy His enemies. Thank You God for YOU, when we are weak You are strong.

You do not get the big picture in any discussion do you? Tunnel vision and narrow mindedness are not positive attributes.
Christ, giving people a spanking and killing ,are two different things that has been the point of my responses. . Also, protecting a person from violence is not even the main issue of what I said. The point is the manner in which Christ brought forth the Good news. And that men should not enslave themselves (By choice) in the system of worldly governments if they have received the good news . Sometimes in that system you are expected to do some bad things . Those things are not based on righteousness but are based on an agenda.

We have a merciful God , He will judge our intent if we are ever put in a position that may provoke us to kill. I say I know what I would do, I say I would probably be weak, but I will not say Christ preached a Gospel contrary to peace. God is good My Christ , is Lord, His ways are right and His decrees are just, I hope I can live up to His standard, but admittedly I know He would have to completely step in for me to withstand that evil day, if it should come before me.

And what you said, still makes no difference to what I said. In the New Covenant things changed, His servants spread the kingdom of heaven through peace. Something you should learn to do. All I get from you when you disagree is, either I am in a cult or some other ridiculous label .

It is when you are persecuted for your faith or even threatened with death , you are to be in submission to that and not retaliate by physical means . That is why Christ corrected Peter when He struck the soldier and cut off His ear. We are to be subject to the powers. Christ hammered that point home in the garden. It is not even about intruders breaking into your house. The point is where is the line drawn? CHRISTIANS DO NOT SPREAD THE GOSPEL BY FEAR OR USE OF THE WEAPONS OF WAR TO SPREAD CHRIST'S MESSAGE. Nor do they rise up and overthrow kingdoms with swords.

That is the CRUX of what people with a heart like Christ's are saying. Obviously men's kingdoms need laws, cops , soldiers etc..... The followers of Christ are to build up the faith in all people and are called to something HIGHER , our focus is not deadly violence. No matter how you turn it, we are to spread the gospel of peace, because Christ said so. Yesh, I see you are that type.

I have to laugh, your the type that would condemn the RCC for its pursuit of what it deems its enemies, yet if you want to , you agree with that approach for your own desires. That type, you know that hypocritical type that calls people Cultist , but then speaks a gospel that is has not been handed down to the faithful. Seems you design your own sort of Christianity which only gives yourself concessions , and it's basis is not peace but confrontation and violence. Have at it, makes no difference to the gospel of peace.
Ephesians 6:14-15
The Armor of God
…14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness arrayed, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness of the gospel of peace.

Even with all the hypothetical discussion on how we might act in this or that situation, or how we have acted, makes no difference to what Christ taught, all the rest is just human weakness. For sure His TRUE followers throughout Christian History are those who did not take up arms and go out as conquerors with weapons.

How do you feel about the Crusades or Protestant persecutions or the Inquisitions ? Maybe those who perpetrated those things were just angry. Their anger can be more than just a spanking with the use of deadly force ,because Christ condones that. Yeah RIGHT! Don't think so!


REALLY? I guess then you are only selective as to what men can do that? After all you are comparing ( a spanking ) to war, and the use of deadly violence, when clearly it was only a spanking. It would seem then, you should not show bias against those who share your same sentiments and stop judging what men of the "wrath" have done in the name of their brand of Christianity throughout Christian history.

After that goofy insanity about some imaginary critter you call an "Edomite Jew", you posted in that other thread, I thought you were seeing some light & "taking" Scripture more at face value, instead of your gang's private interps. Seems I was wrong!