Christology and Preterism

[John of Japan]

John - I answered your OP in several posts on page 1.

Nope, sorry, you did not answer the OP. Did Jesus come in spirit in AD 70, or physically? You still have not answered it. Apparently you are afraid to take a stand on the deity and humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ. (I hope that this is not true, but it certainly looks that way.)

You're using the Pharisees method when they asked Jesus trick questions. I cannot supply an answer that violate Jesus divine/human nature - the sort of answer you want so you can prove my belief false.

Look again at what you quoted of mine. My post that time was not about Christ's divine/human nature, but about the fact that everyone in the whole world will see Jesus at His coming. You are seriously mixed up on this thread--maybe because it is about the hypostatic union of Christ--something you admitted you had never heard of.

Perhaps you didn't notice the clause in my above post:

"I am happy to leave this as a glorious mystery. We shouldn't provoke Paul's rebuke:

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.​

John replied:
"I really have no idea what point you are trying to make about the 2nd coming with this quote about the resurrection of the saints."​

People were asking questions about the resurrection body, which Paul dismissed as foolish. And you are asking questions about the resurrection body of Jesus simply to prove I am in error.

I have several comments here.

1. Do you actually think this thread is about you, that I am trying to trip up little old you? No, a 1000 times no. It is about the Lord Jesus Christ.

2. So then, you compare me to the Pharisees and yourself to Jesus?

3. You miss the point of the entire thread when you sidetrack it onto "what kind of body Jesus has in His resurrection." It is very clear that Jesus now has a resurrection body, and that it is different from His original earthly body. So the question for the preterist remains: if Jesus came spiritually but not physically in AD 70, where was His resurrection body?

It's not a difficult question if one's Christology is correct.

You've had all the answers I am prepared to give.

I see. This means that (1) you can't answer the OP, or (2) you refuse to let go of your "spiritual coming of Christ in AD 70," your preterism, no matter what the Christological ramifications are of that belief.

Either way, with this statement you tacitly give me the victory in the debate.

 

[John of Japan]

Folks, I am not trying to trick anyone. I'm presenting the doctrines of Christology in reference to preterism. This is not something that a preterist can lightly set aside and ignore. It is foundational.

The doctrines of Christology are so important that the Apostle John wrote (2 John vv. 9-11, my translation):

9 Whoever goes too far and does not remain in the doctrine of Christ doesn't have God. Whoever remains in the doctrine of Christ, that person has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you people and doesn't bring this doctrine, don't receive him into the house, and don't speak greetings of joy to him.
11 The reason is that the person speaking greetings of joy to him is sharing his evil deeds.

This passage is extremely relevant to this thread and preterism, because it was written in response to "Christian" Gnosticism, which taught that Jesus was only a spirit and had no physical presence. The gentle, loving Apostle John so hated this doctrine that it is said that when he learned that the Gnostic Cerinthus was in the bathhouse he had entered with his disciple, he exclaimed that they should flee the place lest they be caught in God's judgment on the Gnostic!

 

[David Kent]

've been to two different 3rd world countries, and even there everyone--EVERYONE!--had cell phones. They were mostly i-phones in the African country I was in last year.

I Don't think they will need cellphones. I think it will be literal, He will come like lightning so there will be not time to get out your cellphones, It will be on the last day when the saints are raised, also the day of judgement.

• Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

 

[John of Japan]

I Don't think they will need cellphones. I think it will be literal, He will come like lightning so there will be not time to get out your cellphones, It will be on the last day when the saints are raised, also the day of judgement.

• Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Well of course they won't need cellphones. That was just an illustration.

 

[prophecy70]

the Jewish nation of Israel - yes they have been waiting for almost 2000 years for their Messiah.

HankD

So if humans can broadcast all over the world, surely God is powerful enough to do so, don't you think? (Just so you don't misunderstand as badly as Covenanter did, I mean with a miracle, not through cell phones.)

I was only joking John. I am working on your sense of humor.

 

[prophecy70]

You are not answering the OP. How did Jesus come in judgement, physically or spiritually?

Judgmentally not physically..He didn't destroy the temple. ... how do you describe God coming in the OT?

 

[John of Japan]

I was only joking John. I am working on your sense of humor.

Okey dokey.

 

[David Kent]

• 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

It will be a bright coming that every one will see.

When God led Cyrus by the hand was that spiritually?

 

[John of Japan]

Judgmentally not physically..He didn't destroy the temple. ... how do you describe God coming in the OT?

I describe Him as a spirit coming without a body, because the incarnation had not yet happened, and "God is a spirit" (John 4:24).

However, the 2nd Coming of Christ is after His incarnation, in which He eternally took on the human form.

 

[John of Japan]

Folks, I've described the preterist "spiritual" 2nd Coming of Christ as meaning his physical body had to die somewhere up in Heaven. (No preterist has dared answer this, because it destroys their whole argument for a "spiritual" coming.) Here is more Scriptural evidence of my position:

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26).

 

[prophecy70]

Folks, I've described the preterist "spiritual" 2nd Coming of Christ as meaning his physical body had to die somewhere up in Heaven. (No preterist has dared answer this, because it destroys their whole argument for a "spiritual" coming.) Here is more Scriptural evidence of my position:

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26).

Its not an earthy body anymore but I don't even think he came Spiritually I don't believe God came spiritually with his comings for Judgment they were just human armies doing his will. Just because I can't explain something 100% doesn't mean it has to be future.

If you can believe this:

They are estimated 2.2 billion christians on earth. Say 700 Million actually saved, disappear one day, And no one is going to understand what happened, with all this modern technology, A google search will even bring up our convos, Thats how I found this place. Then some guy is going to trick 7.4 Billion people and make peace with the two most hated group of people in world and rebuild a temple all in 3 1/2 years. Because you think the Bible says so.

I think its pretty reasonable to believe Jesus came in Judgment, (the roman army) in AD 70

I know its about premillennialism and not on subject, But even Justin Martyr said

Then I answered, “I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.

You said before God led your family to your beliefs, Do you think God led us to ours?

 

[Yeshua1]

• 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

It will be a bright coming that every one will see.

When God led Cyrus by the hand was that spiritually?

There shall be NO doubt that the second coming happened, as history as we now know it will totally be changed!

 

[Yeshua1]

Its not an earthy body anymore but I don't even think he came Spiritually I don't believe God came spiritually with his comings for Judgment they were just human armies doing his will. Just because I can't explain something 100% doesn't mean it has to be future.

If you can believe this:

They are estimated 2.2 billion christians on earth. Say 700 Million actually saved, disappear one day, And no one is going to understand what happened, with all this modern technology, A google search will even bring up our convos, Thats how I found this place. Then some guy is going to trick 7.4 Billion people and make peace with the two most hated group of people in world and rebuild a temple all in 3 1/2 years. Because you think the Bible says so.

I think its pretty reasonable to believe Jesus came in Judgment, (the roman army) in AD 70

There is only ONE second coming, so when that happened, there will be a resurrection of the saved, to be glorified, when did that happen in AD 70?

 

[John of Japan]

Its not an earthy body anymore but I don't even think he came Spiritually I don't believe God came spiritually with his comings for Judgment they were just human armies doing his will. Just because I can't explain something 100% doesn't mean it has to be future.

Sorry, this makes little sense to me in light of the OP, so I can't answer it.

If you can believe this:

They are estimated 2.2 billion christians on earth. Say 700 Million actually saved, disappear one day, And no one is going to understand what happened, with all this modern technology, A google search will even bring up our convos, Thats how I found this place. Then some guy is going to trick 7.4 Billion people and make peace with the two most hated group of people in world and rebuild a temple all in 3 1/2 years. Because you think the Bible says so.

No, not because I think the Bible says so. That matters next to nothing. What matters is interpreting the Bible with a grammatical-historical hermeneutic, not allegorically.

I think its pretty reasonable to believe Jesus came in Judgment, (the roman army) in AD 70

Sorry, reasonable doesn't cut it. The prophecies of the Second Coming by Jesus Himself are specific and physical. If Jesus did not come physically in AD 70 (and there is absolutely no evidence that He did), then the prophecies are not fulfilled.

If Christ "came in judgment," there should be prophecies to that effect. But the prophecies are clear that He Himself will come again.

You said before God led your family to your beliefs, Do you think God led us to ours?

No, what I said specifically was that God lead my grandfather to a premil position through his personal study and literal interpretation of the Scriptures. My own personal journey was different, but through my own study of Scripture I came to the same conclusion.

Concerning your beliefs, if you have decided you are a preterist, then no, God did not lead you there because that position is a violation of the historical-grammatical hermeneutic, which God endorses in Neh. 8:8 if you must have a passage.

In all other disciplines, in all sciences, in all situations, people interpret literally: traffic laws and other laws, contents on food items, instructions of various kinds, conversations, literature (recognizing figures of speech), recipes, etc. It's a mystery to me why otherwise good Christians think the Bible must be interpreted "spiritually" or allegorically.

 

[prophecy70]

Concerning your beliefs, if you have decided you are a preterist, then no, God did not lead you there because that position is a violation of the historical-grammatical hermeneutic, which God endorses in Neh. 8:8 if you must have a passage.

God didn't lead me to my beliefs? What did then? Satan?

 

[John of Japan]

God didn't lead me to my beliefs? What did then? Satan?

A mistaken hermeneutic led you to your beliefs.

Look, we can't both be right. Either you are right or I am. I would be surprised to have you say that, "Oh, God lead both of us." God leads no one to mistaken doctrine.

 

[prophecy70]

Look, we can't both be right. Either you are right or I am. I would be surprised to have you say that, "Oh, God lead both of us." God leads no one to mistaken doctrine.

True, But I don't see how you have the authority to say you have the total and flawless Doctrine.

Its like Creation vs Evolution you can't prove it without doubt either way, each is a Faith system. I can't go back in time and prove Jesus meant what he did, and you can't prove it unless MR three sixes shows up on the telly. Oh wait planes will be falling out of the sky before then....

 

[John of Japan]

True, But I don't see how you have the authority to say you have the total and flawless Doctrine.

I'm getting tired of your misquoting of me. I never said this.

Its like Creation vs Evolution you can't prove it without doubt either way, each is a Faith system. I can't go back in time and prove Jesus meant what he did, and you can't prove it unless MR three sixes shows up on the telly. Oh wait planes will be falling out of the sky before then....

I simply interpret the Bible literally. You are welcome to not interpret it literally, if you wish.

Having said that, I think I've proven handily on this thread from the Bible the folly of the full preterist view that Jesus came "spiritually" but not physically in AD 70. I'm satisfied with that.

Prophecy is like Creationism. If you interpret the Bible evidence of both literally, you will come out a premil Creationist.

 

[Revmitchell]

True, But I don't see how you have the authority to say you have the total and flawless Doctrine.

Its like Creation vs Evolution you can't prove it without doubt either way, each is a Faith system. I can't go back in time and prove Jesus meant what he did, and you can't prove it unless MR three sixes shows up on the telly. Oh wait planes will be falling out of the sky before then....

Faith system?? What do you think a faith system is?

 

[prophecy70]

Faith system?? What do you think a faith system is?

complete trust or confidence something? I don't get why you are asking me that.