Yes but no one knows which generation the last one will be Sort of like the last trump. No one knows when that will happen either.We all think His coming is close, but even still, we could be wrong because no one knows.
MB
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Christ's Return: Spiritual or Physical?
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MB
Thanks for responding, Lodic. I need to crash right now so I will respond more fully later. I believe that one of the best proofs for Full Preterism is 1 Cor 15.
More later. The people in our previous hotel were loud all night. I have higher hopes for this one.
And this is seed for another topic (thread): What is the blessed Hope?
Lodic
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I agree - the "blessed hope" is a great topic for another thread. Hope you get some good rest. It's hard to stay in a "forgiving" mood when the knuckleheads you are supposed to forgive have been keeping you up all night and you are just exhausted and very grumpy.
I haven't jumped in before but I will jump in now... Every doctrine I have ever heard speaks of a bodily immortal resurrection... Do we believe that when we die our spirit goes back to God who gave it?... Isn't that what scripture teaches?... Then would not it stand to reason that the spirits that return to God are immortal?... Then why does the spirit need to be immortalized?... It doesn't... Would someone explain to me these scripture if that is so?
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The antecedent is put on and you are putting on something that was not there before... Our immortal spirit shall be joined to our physical resurrected body and the resurrection will be for the just and unjust... To digress, I disagree, though Partial, 1 Corinthians 15 does not confirm Full Preterism... Brother Glen
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It will all get fulfilled in the generation that saw those things coming to pass, still yet future!
That is where full preterism fails, as we still look for the blessed hop and physical resurrected bodies at His second coming!
Lodic
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Hello, Brother Glen. I may be missing something here (wouldn't be the first time), but I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying.I haven't jumped in before but I will jump in now... Every doctrine I have ever heard speaks of a bodily immortal resurrection... Do we believe that when we die our spirit goes back to God who gave it?... Isn't that what scripture teaches?... Then would not it stand to reason that the spirits that return to God are immortal?... Then why does the spirit need to be immortalized?... It doesn't... Would someone explain to me these scripture if that is so?
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The antecedent is put on and you are putting on something that was not there before... Our immortal spirit shall be joined to our physical resurrected body and the resurrection will be for the just and unjust... To digress, I disagree, though Partial, 1 Corinthians 15 does not confirm Full Preterism... Brother Glen
You asked if our spirit goes back to God. I believe that is a reference to Ecc. 12:7. If that is the case, here is my argument. Solomon was not providing a case for life after death, but for the "vanity" of life. The closest I could come to an agreement about "returning to God" would come from 2 Cor 5:8 "to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord".
As I understand those passages from 1 Cor 15, Paul is speaking of our spiritual "bodies" (is that an oxymoron). When our physical bodies die, we "put on" the immortal spiritual. In one sense, we are immortal, but our physical bodies are subject to decay. (I can almost feel mine decay, especially when the weather gets cold.) Anyway, Paul is pointing back to what he said earlier (vs. 24-28).
It's not that the soul becomes immortalized, but that we come into our immortal life when we shed this earthly body.
That's an extremely restrictive view, but I won't press the point.
Why does there need to be? We already know from Luke 24:39 and following that he was in a human (glorified) body as the "first fruits" (see 1 Corinthians 15:23) of the resurrection harvest. It is a body that is much like the ones we have now, yet with additional properties that we see demonstrated in Jesus.
To sum it up, Jesus was resurrected in a physical and spiritual body. (Please note that "physical" and "spiritual" are not opposites, nor do they conflict with each other. Humans can be both physical and spiritual.)
The intermediate state between the death of our bodies and the final resurrection is the only time when we will likely not have a physical state.
1 Corinthians 15:50 teaches that we do not enter into the Kingdom of God (referring to the present rule of God, not just the eternal state) by the will and strength of our mortal bodies ("flesh and blood"). Also, Christ's body, and our bodies, will be raised imperishable in the resurrection. There is no conflict if you understand the nature of the Kingdom of God, which is a present reality.
No, not at all. "Flesh and bones" refers to His physical body that He invited them to handle. "Flesh and blood" from Corinthians is referring to the power of the unredeemed body, as well as those who do not have a resurrection body.
The answer is definitely clear, but you have missed it. His "incarnational mission," as you put it, never ends. He still possesses the body that His disciples handled in Luke 24.
Even His "humiliation" has been redeemed in a glorified body. He possesses the same glory as before, plus the glory of the wounds that He chose to keep, which forever testify of His grace.
In the chapter we have a series of contrasts between the new life and the old, the things we will become contrasted to those things we are being saved from. Those good qualities of the new creature (v. 42-44) are: incorruption, glory, power, spiritual. Then we read about the originators of the two classes, Adam and Christ. Adam "became a living being". Christ, "a life-giving Spirit."
Then we come to a very important, oft-overlooked, detail. Overlooked in application, the origins of these two persons.
"The first man is of the earth (ἐκ γῆς), earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven (ἐξ οὐρανοῦ) ."
This passage is a continuation of verse 40: somata epigeia and somata epourania now become "ek ges" and "ex ouranou". This preposition (ek, ex - the forms only differ because of euphonics) shows origin. Adam came from the earth, from the dust. This brings to mind the very passage from Genesis. The "Second Adam" came from heaven.
Note: In both cases, the origins determine the essence of who these two are - and (v. 48) the essence of their "followers".
Verse 49 says that "we shall bear the image of the heavenly man" (the Second Adam, from heaven).
Now here is why I believe our bodies will not be physical. Individual, yes, but not “flesh and blood" or "flesh and bones":
We shall be like Christ. I John 3:2
He does not need to be like us. He now has the glory He had with the Father.
And what exactly is Christ like - according to I Cor. 15?
He is like He was when He came to Earth, before His Incarnation. He is spiritual.
Was Christ fleshly before he came here to Earth? No. He was pure Spirit.
We - according to this passage - will also be like Him.
Pure spirit. Individual bodies, but spirit.
We cannot have part Adam's essence ("dust") and part Christ's, seeing that we could not then "enter into the Kingdom of God". "Dust" has to do with "flesh and blood", not spirit.
But what about His being, "the Man Christ Jesus"?
This brings us to Hebrews.
The writer of this epistle tells just what is/will be involved by being partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus. Hebrews 12: 18 – 24. Notice especially this part, vss. 22A, 23c:
“But you are come unto Mount Zion … and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”
Humanity does not require a physical body. My father and mother, both dead now, both Christians, do not have physical bodies.
I believe this is what Scripture teaches. I know the tradition of men teaches otherwise, especially modern tradition. I am quite open to changing my views, but please deal with these verses. If I missed something you will have done me a great favor.
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This goes against the Hebrews passage that speaks of the "days of His flesh". "Days", not "world without end".
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Nowhere do you have this substantiated in Scripture. No verse teaches us that Christ - post ascension - has these wounds now. It is all tradition.
Yes, but we are not save FROM having a body, we are save from having a body that is corrupted by sin, among other things.
None of those qualities are opposed to having a body.
Adam was created innocent of sin AND possessed a body.
Adam's body was created from the dust (Genesis 2:7) and was given the breath of life from God. Jesus has always been a Person of the eternal Triune God Who dwells in the heavens. He entered into Adam's line, through Mary, and redeemed it. In His death and resurrection, He received a glorified body as the first fruits of the resurrection that we will all receive. We will be righteous in our resurrected bodies (see 1 Corinthians 15:20-23).
No, not "essence," but nature. "Adam" nature is symbolic of the fallen state (not his original, eternal innocent state) that eventually leads to death. In Adam, we have no ability to sustain ourselves eternally. Jesus, from the heavens (aka God), not only is self-sustaining in His life, He can sustain all who enter into His life in their glorified bodies. Remember, it was only after the fall that death entered into human life (Genesis 3, 1 Corinthians 15:21). Originally, Adam and Eve lived in the garden, in bodies, with access to the Tree of Life. Those who are resurrected will live in a similar state, with full access to the Tree of Life again (Revelation 22:2).
Did you notice the word "man?" Men have bodies -- even Jesus.
Jesus was raised with a body of flesh and bones. So we will have a physical body.
He does not have to bear the scars of His crucifixion either, but He does.
Yes, but He also possessed glory as He walked the earth 2,000 years ago.
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." -- John 1:14
"This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him." -- John 2:11
No. Philipians 3:20-21 states:
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
You have forgotten that we will have glorified bodies.
Christ was physically raised from the dead. If you don't believe that, you are outside the faith. Moreover, He was raised in a glorified body.
You have confused the "Kingdom of God" with a spiritual heaven. The kingdom of God speaks of God's active and present rule upon the earth and heavens, not merely a future state. All those who are obedient to Christ in our "Adam" bodies are ALREADY in the Kingdom of God.
Apparently, you don't understand that humankind has both a body and a spirit. Before God, our primary issue is not that we have a body that is corrupt and destined to die (that's part of the curse), but that our spirits were -- and sometimes still are -- in rebellion toward God. The writer of Hebrews has been using an extended allusion to the journey of the Hebrews from Egypt to the Promised Land, and he/she is directly referencing the time when the Children of Israel made a covenant with God (Exodus 19). Their problem was not their physical bodies/souls, but their hearts/spirits toward God.
Yes, your parents have bodies. Their bodies are no longer living, and depending upon the conditions of their death or processes after their death, their bodies may no longer be in an easily recognizable state. However, they have bodies and those bodies will be restored from the dust into a glorified body.
The normal, natural state for humankind is inhabit a body. During the intermediate state (between physical death and the day of the Resurrection), we may not have bodies in the "dwelling place" (John 14:1-3) or Paradise (Luke 23:43). But the dead will be raised to physical bodies (see Revelation 20:4-6, 12-13).
You have to look at the context to interpret the passage properly. The writer of Hebrews points out the difference between the Aaronic priesthood, which was administered by sinful men (see v. 1-4) as opposed to Jesus, Who was a high priest according to the type of Melchizedek, the mysterious priest of God that appeared to Abraham, offering bread and wine (a type of Christ) in Genesis 14:18.
Then, the writer of Hebrews points to the humanity of Christ, and specifically how He "learned obedience" (v. 8) so that He was prepared to be our Great High Priest. The writer is emphasizing His humanity by pointing out that this was accomplished not by nature of His identity ("Although He was a son" v. 8), but by His obedience in the body He had before it was glorified.
Revelation 5:6 - "And I saw... a Lamb standing, as if slain..."
Well, I gave it my best shot. Either you see it or you don't. But I do appreciate your taking time to answer with Scripture. But many of those verses are for points I agree with you. Not sure why you wrote them. But you miss the main points, especially your convoluted dancing around the "days of His flesh". I'm sorry, but that's what it is.
Take care.
Another one to reconcile:
20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17
The Son of man "in His day" will not be physically "here" nor physically "there" but just as lightning lightens the entire sky His presence will be everywhere, as prophesied many times over in the OT:
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14
And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4
So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10
And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2
All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27
Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10
When something like this happens, it usually means that we have a different understanding of the terms the scripture is using. I run into this all the time when talking to people of different faiths.
For instance, I was wondering what you meant by the following terms:
- Kingdom of God
- Heaven
- Heavenly
- Glory
- Spiritual
You seem to believe that "Heaven" is a non-physical place away from earth. Revelation depicts the heavens and the earth joining ("New Jerusalem"), with humankind living upon the earth, just as we were created to live.
You seem to believe that "heavenly" necessarily describes the nature of some non-material thing or person. However, the word simply refers to the origin of the thing or person.
You seem to define "glory" exclusively as some kind of radiance or spiritual manifestation, while glory in the New Testament also describes the manifestation of God in the various created persons, things, and acts of Jesus and His disciples.
You seem to define "spiritual" in a non-biblical way. It seems you think of it as the opposite of physical. In the scriptures, it refers to the source, or animating force, of something, not it's essence. "Spirit" is the opposite of physical.
Please spare the insults. There was no "convoluted dancing around" the subject. I had a short amount of time and I probably didn't express myself as well as I could have.
No it's not. If you didn't understand what I meant or you had objections, you could have presented those. Instead, you condescendingly dismissed my argument without comment.
Fundamentally, you haven't answered the question of why you think Jesus is NOT in a physical body, since that's what He was in the last time His disciples saw Him as He ascended.
There's a good chance that you believe such a thing because you struggle with the ascension itself, which is quite common amount modern people (as well as ancient ones). Since you don't know the location of "Heaven," but assume it is some sort of non-physical place, you deduce that a physical person cannot inhabit a non-physical place. But where did you get the idea that the dwelling place of God is not physical?
I'm a "literalist". I cannot say what kinda body Jesus will return in, but every eye shall see Him, and He will be in Jerusalem.
Remember, He DOES come in spirit wherever/whenever two or more are gathered in His name. That's His own words! But that's different from His future PHYSICAL return when He will be in His full power & glory, visible to all.
Remember, He DOES come in spirit wherever/whenever two or more are gathered in His name. That's His own words! But that's different from His future PHYSICAL return when He will be in His full power & glory, visible to all.
I agree. Something to remember is that in His resurrection body, Jesus had an annoying habit of suddenly appearing (for example, in the locked room with the disciples) and disappearing (for example, on the road to Emmaus), so Jesus can be literally present with us without us being able to see Him.
Well, if challenging your beliefs comes across as insulting then I would suggest you are in the wrong place. Those crucial words you did not even address. Crying "context" is often a way to redirect from a passage that you don't know how to handle.
And that's not a bad thing. We are all learning. But don't be so thin-skinned about it.
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